It should have been a league match but since we (svek) had problem with players they (coh) asked us to get mercs (3 players). I see it as a forfeit because we only had 3 svek players i think. However the ban is soon over and admin should be clear about this rule.....................
I want to know why? (map bugs discussion)
- Thread starter TuT
- Start date
-
Hey - turns out IRC is out and something a little more modern has taken it's place... A little thing called Discord!
Join our community @ https://discord.gg/JuaSzXBZrk for a pick-up game, or just to rekindle with fellow community members.
- Status
Well I can count the voluntary reports in forum PM's to the Admins on one hand. Only me asking directly in #utapug gave some response. If you for any reason believe that we need a list to be clear. Then i think you should report each and every one you know. If not then I think you guys need to stop moaning about it.
http://forums.utassault.net/announcement.php?f=34&a=104
If you think this is to much work you can PM me directly with a description. And I will go look for it personally. If even that is to much work shout me we'll go on a server and you can show me them.
Once the deadline is reached and all known bugs are fixed or atleast have some more clearity. And a report is being made about a bug that is not known. It will definatly be punished if deemed unacceptable by the League Administration.
So should you come across a new bug i suggest you report it instead of use it.
http://forums.utassault.net/announcement.php?f=34&a=104
If you think this is to much work you can PM me directly with a description. And I will go look for it personally. If even that is to much work shout me we'll go on a server and you can show me them.
Once the deadline is reached and all known bugs are fixed or atleast have some more clearity. And a report is being made about a bug that is not known. It will definatly be punished if deemed unacceptable by the League Administration.
So should you come across a new bug i suggest you report it instead of use it.
No, I meant the mercs=forfeit but still play the match thing, not the bug report.
You can't possibly think that such shots could ever be called bugs
That's a totally different thing.
Last edited:
I somehow do have to agree with this. Way back when I just started with =[FDC]=, all clans were using similar spots like these, I remember discovering it by trying hammer jumps in different maps. It just was there and everyone took it for what it was. Always has been played that way with nobody looking back at it.
Also you'd run out of ammo soon enough and it would take you some time to get back there again, which you never could pull of time after time vs a good attack from your oponents.
I believe a warning would have been better in place followed by the change of rules (fix of "mapbug") letting everyone know that from this moment on it would be forbidden.
I wouldn't call feighning death on the mazon front door a bug (as Smantie pointed out), since people easily could shoot that person and would be dumb enough to jump there while seeing the body lying right there. But then again, that is my opinion, and it would be indeed a good idea to have some kind of list of what is allowed and what not.
The trees in Bridge are intended to be holllow, I can't see any other way possible, I mean as a mapper you would most certainly give your maps a few run-throughs and discover that they are hollow. Mier (the mapper) decided to leave it as it is, so let's just keep it that way.
Finally the bug what people have been mentioning that you would appear on the ground while still being on a higher level. I think this is more of a lag-issue. I.E. the UT engine interpretets the forward movement as still going on, while you actually just stop moving before the edge which results in seeing the skin on the ground. Not sure about this, but I've seen this happen on different maps/locations most of the time with higher pingers.
Last edited:
Yes bugs can be very different and hard to compare against, however I chose to compare the bug DJ performed with possibly the most common bug used in UTA, the Riverbed3 Wall Bug. Yes its a wall bug but it saves you a hell of a lot of health. This increases your chances of winning the map.
I think a list is being compiled anyway of what is and isnt allowed. Thats all that needs ti be done then in future people will have no argument against their suspension, if one occurs.
On the other hand I dont think invisible trees or barbed wire sniping should ever be forbidden. It is apart of the map and is easy to counter. They can be used on offence as a hiding tactic. In 6v6 this would be very difficult to pull off anyway without being seen going in or even goin out of the tree. It is more annoying of defence when you are sniped from inside the single tree but yet again this can be easily stopped and seeing as people can hide behind the dock this shouldn't be an issue.
One other problem I see is Desolate. If it is forbidden to snipe from the piping before Guard Room on defence then it should also be illegal to hide amongst the piping before Generator Room on offence. They go hand in hand and IMO neither should be forbidden as they are not a serious issue.
I think a list is being compiled anyway of what is and isnt allowed. Thats all that needs ti be done then in future people will have no argument against their suspension, if one occurs.
On the other hand I dont think invisible trees or barbed wire sniping should ever be forbidden. It is apart of the map and is easy to counter. They can be used on offence as a hiding tactic. In 6v6 this would be very difficult to pull off anyway without being seen going in or even goin out of the tree. It is more annoying of defence when you are sniped from inside the single tree but yet again this can be easily stopped and seeing as people can hide behind the dock this shouldn't be an issue.
One other problem I see is Desolate. If it is forbidden to snipe from the piping before Guard Room on defence then it should also be illegal to hide amongst the piping before Generator Room on offence. They go hand in hand and IMO neither should be forbidden as they are not a serious issue.
You can't possibly think that such shots could ever be called bugs
I couldnt possibly think that jumping into a wall, hiding in a tree or standing at an invisible spot could be called bugs until today.
However, it is neither intended that u turn invisible nor that u can get crystal on mazon before reactor doors or that u can ripper on lavafort, hug walls to avoid falling damage.... So where does exploiting start? There are a few hundred people in this community and so there are prolly as many different opinions on this. So as long as there are no clear rules its all down to the mood of the admins and although im sure they try to be as fair and objective as possible their decisions cant always be right/accepted by the majority of the community.
Comparing trickshots with bugs? Seriously....
Bugs have as far as i known since the beginning of AS been frowned uppon.
The various Door blocks on Rook (even though u could still finish the map.
Blocking Hi-speed doors for obvious reasons.
Mazon Rippering through the wall
Overlord Flag shot
Ballistic shooting genny through the wall
Overlord Change team.
Going Through The Fan on ballistic
Blocking objectives with boxes
Original Astheno falling through the lift in the back
Guardia at the bridge sitting on thin air above the lava
So forth and so on.
I think most people forget how much stuff has been fixed etc. in the past
Bugs have as far as i known since the beginning of AS been frowned uppon.
The various Door blocks on Rook (even though u could still finish the map.
Blocking Hi-speed doors for obvious reasons.
Mazon Rippering through the wall
Overlord Flag shot
Ballistic shooting genny through the wall
Overlord Change team.
Going Through The Fan on ballistic
Blocking objectives with boxes
Original Astheno falling through the lift in the back
Guardia at the bridge sitting on thin air above the lava
So forth and so on.
I think most people forget how much stuff has been fixed etc. in the past
The majority of bugs involving objectives have been fixed over the years, I would say any that are left now are minor ones either to the extent they are too difficult to do to be useful or most people are expected and know not to use them.
Ripper is meant to bounce, so I cant see how you can say anything that involves throwing grenades, bouncing flak or rippers is a use of a bug, yes im sure they didnt envision that lava could be taken from as far away as it is but that in my opinion is down to ppl improving their skills with a weapon and nothing more.
Others havent been punished in the past purely because people havent reported it, I know from -8- matches that we generally havent cared about other teams, we've reported one bug to admins in 6 years I think. If people dont want to report it then the admins arent going to hunt out people to ban for using bugs.
As for not banning invisible spots that have been reported you have to keep in mind that there is a chance however unlikely that it is an accident. As a snipe for exampler you might go into the same spot 10-20 times within a map and you may not be aware that it makes you invisble, If the invisible spot is in a high traffic area or an obviuosly valid defence spot then it would be hard to ban anyone for it as there is too much of an element of doubt.
Ripper is meant to bounce, so I cant see how you can say anything that involves throwing grenades, bouncing flak or rippers is a use of a bug, yes im sure they didnt envision that lava could be taken from as far away as it is but that in my opinion is down to ppl improving their skills with a weapon and nothing more.
Others havent been punished in the past purely because people havent reported it, I know from -8- matches that we generally havent cared about other teams, we've reported one bug to admins in 6 years I think. If people dont want to report it then the admins arent going to hunt out people to ban for using bugs.
As for not banning invisible spots that have been reported you have to keep in mind that there is a chance however unlikely that it is an accident. As a snipe for exampler you might go into the same spot 10-20 times within a map and you may not be aware that it makes you invisble, If the invisible spot is in a high traffic area or an obviuosly valid defence spot then it would be hard to ban anyone for it as there is too much of an element of doubt.
... me on other hand would need a period of 2-3 month ban right now, I feel so bad when I dont turn up to Svek´s clan matches so i would like some mental holiday and be able to tell my clan mates... god I cant play I am banned... but now excuses not showing up feels like coming from a kid sometimes...
Any idea for what is needed to get a 2-3 month ban are welcome, I might be able to celebrate Christmas in peace !!
Or maybe it is possible to write to Admins and ask them to ban me for a period..??
Maybe Dj´s ban should be like: He is banned and not allowed mercing in Svek for 2 weeks, since the mistake appeared there, maybe he was influenced by Svek players to use the bug so maybe that is better punishment, will learn Svek players to show up and not put Mercs into trouble..?
Any idea for what is needed to get a 2-3 month ban are welcome, I might be able to celebrate Christmas in peace !!
Or maybe it is possible to write to Admins and ask them to ban me for a period..??
Maybe Dj´s ban should be like: He is banned and not allowed mercing in Svek for 2 weeks, since the mistake appeared there, maybe he was influenced by Svek players to use the bug so maybe that is better punishment, will learn Svek players to show up and not put Mercs into trouble..?
... me on other hand would need a period of 2-3 month ban right now, I feel so bad when I dont turn up to Svek´s clan matches so i would like some mental holiday and be able to tell my clan mates... god I cant play I am banned... but now excuses not showing up feels like coming from a kid sometimes...
Any idea for what is needed to get a 2-3 month ban are welcome, I might be able to celebrate Christmas in peace !!
Or maybe it is possible to write to Admins and ask them to ban me for a period..??
Maybe Dj´s ban should be like: He is banned and not allowed mercing in Svek for 2 weeks, since the mistake appeared there, maybe he was influenced by Svek players to use the bug so maybe that is better punishment, will learn Svek players to show up and not put Mercs into trouble..?
if u don't want to play , don't play ^^
whats your idioticness got to do with this topic ? lol
When DJ was banned he wasnt aware either that he is using an exploit. When u tell the judge u didnt know killing was illegal he wont care either.
Ok so I call it a trickspot instead of bug and now Im allowed to jump into the ballistic spot? Seriously, there is no difference, both is not working as intended and both only uses the map physics.
Oh come on. DJ, who has played in the league for years at the top level and probably knows every exploit around (not saying he's a cheat but just knows from experience) didn't know ? Pfff...
Shooting impact objectives with weapons isn't a cheat or a bug if your projectiles travel through parts of the map they were meant to. So Lava rippers are fine but rippering through walls on Mazon clearly isn't. I guess we're not allowed to hit the Frigate Compressor with bounced grenades any more if these objectives are all bugs. The positioning of such objectives and the use of projectile weapons are not mistakes - hit the objs from wherever you want just as long as you're not exploiting the mistakes of the mapper in order to do it. And that's what separates things like ripper-shots from things like Ballistic wall-hiding - one isn't a mistake, the other one is. Or did the Ballistic mapper deliberately make that spot a place where people could go to become invincible?
I DID NOT KNOW that!!!!!!!!! i pld pug for over a year vs Rai and others usally most Rai hiding same place i was in. Hes always in Pipes on deso and other buggy places so why cant i be? and HOW can i know im gonna be BANNED for that in a friendly i was friendly joined and let em play 6v6?? jeez. ok give me a warning next time ban but seriousl this IS fucking bollox.
Brajan! u said u only heard from one side not from my view. Now THAT IS A BIG LOL. i dont even get to defend myself...u dont answer irc AND u delete ALL MY POST i submit before they are public. Now HOW IS THAT DEFENDABLE AS A LEAUGE ADMIN.
Give me a warning before banning for this.....this leauge IS FOR SURE going down and admins with it. sad tho....and sad ppl dont get to play wars with his own team when he was friendly and let em play 6v6 in a war that was already over....
uve not seen last of this for sure. this only makes more work for admins as TONS of demos will now be sent in future wars blaming bugs. No need for this 8 pages cause u banned me for a thing that was used a long time and from alot of players.
dont be creative in a 7 year old game then u get banned....AND it is easy 2 kill the guy using the spot. u just must miss when trying to shoot him. Try 6 rox cluster = 2 easy.....
GG BRAJAN
u made this game even more reserved than it is. GOOD JOB
Last edited:
I don't think you should have been banned either, it's just hard to believe that you didn't know about something I did know about, when you've got much more experience than me. And if Raichu is standing n a spot it's a pretty safe bet that he's about to do an exploit of some sort
Oh come on. DJ, who has played in the league for years at the top level and probably knows every exploit around (not saying he's a cheat but just knows from experience) didn't know ? Pfff...
I wasnt aware that it is an exploit either and Ive seen many people use this "exploit" and the other invisibly exploits as well and would call them fair players who wouldnt use any cheats. So I come to the conclusion that 90% of the league didnt know this is considered cheating coz otherwise
-less people would do it (compare how many players have actually cheated in a league game and how many have used one of these spots) and
-there would have been a huge load of reports about it (there used to be hours of flames after so many league games and noone used the chance to report exploits the other team used? cmon even u have to admit that this is more enough of a proof that people were not aware of it. Now dont say noone used the exploits, Ive already seen most of the div2/3 clans we had to play use these spots)
There is still no point that could convince me. Noone except the mapper himsellf knows what he wanted for his map. Is it intended that u can hj vents up on asthenosphere with 2 hj by landing on an invisible wall? Is it intended that u can hide on ballistic in a wall? Is it intended that u can shoot the last objective on lavafort with a ripper? All these questions can only be answered by the mapper. So as long as there is no official statement from the mapper u dont know shit. U say ballistic spot is a mistake, lavafort ripper aint. Now lets ask around here and we will probably find lots of differents opinions. The author of ballistic was a member of this community iirc and i think its possible he made that place as a little map secret to use it himself. Its just stupid to talk about things being intended/mistakes when u cant know it.
1 more thing I have to add that apart from the intention of the author its still up to the league players to decide how they want a map to be played. So if the creator of lavafort says he didnt want rippers to be used we can still use it. Due to the fact that we cant ask the authors anyway we have to make our own rules. And as long as there are no rules (u cant call this rubbish in league rules as real rules) u cant ban people. Thats basically what Im trying to point out for 3 pages now by bringing ridiculous examples of anything being a bug coz it is not the authors intention. I´ll try to be more straight from now coz people seem to read only and not think about what i could mean with it
And one last thing to the admins:
U had the choice between warning dj and making an official statement that it is goin to get punished from now on and anything would have been fine. However, u decided to make a ridiculous 2weeks ban which on the one side is nothing (if we had scheduled matches different it would have been like no penalty) and at the same time u made this chaos and flames happen. So for the future Id suggest u to go for the popular decision if they are so close together just to protect urself. I know u are doing a hard job and that way it will just be much easier for u. There was no need to set an example on dj and thats what happened here.
Last edited:
i did NOT know that, and in a friendly common..... only brings more mess to the leage this useless discussion....
no warning or nothing and admins that refuse to answer ur pms.. is that how it should work? sphere send demos cause he dislikes me and u get banned lol.....well if thats how we play this game from now im sure gonna do same.!
no warning or nothing and admins that refuse to answer ur pms.. is that how it should work? sphere send demos cause he dislikes me and u get banned lol.....well if thats how we play this game from now im sure gonna do same.!
OK, so I guess we can no longer, say, hammer-jump over the Ballistic gates, because as far as we know it wasn't intended to be low enough to allow this. No more hammer-jumping to the Garage button in Guardia either - the map designer can't have known it was low enough. Grz clearly didn't know you could go behind the tents in Desert to find an alt route to the Samsite, so anyone caught doing that is a cheat... Wtf.
I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I find it baffling that you can't tell the difference between a ripper-shot and a spot which makes you invincible. As far as DJ's ban goes I'm with you and him: I don't agree with a ban for that. All I'm saying is that there are bugs and then there are tricks, and something which can't be defended against (ie. Ballistic spot) is a bug, whereas ripper-shots are tricks. They can be deffed against and there's no invincibility involved. But yeah it's an argument full of grey areas and differing opinions. So the only way to solve this whole thing is to compile a list of things people consider bugs and then remove or keep them based on votes. Surely you would vote to see Ball spot removed but not ripper-shots? Well, I'd totally agree with you - I'd vote the same.
What the heck.
I agree that banning Dj is a harsh decision, after all, ppl (some more than others ) have been (ab)using bugs since the very beginning and, and as far as I know, no one has ever been banned for it.
UTA Rules states the following:
So basically the admins would decide if something would be trick or bug.
You can ask yourselves the same question. "Is it ok to use this without spoiling the gameplay?"
The key here is common sense. Use some common sense to draw the line between trick and bug, it ain't that hard imo.
A listing of bugs u can and cannot use is a complete joke imo.
I agree that banning Dj is a harsh decision, after all, ppl (some more than others
) have been (ab)using bugs since the very beginning and, and as far as I know, no one has ever been banned for it.UTA Rules states the following:
So basically the admins would decide if something would be trick or bug.
You can ask yourselves the same question. "Is it ok to use this without spoiling the gameplay?"
The key here is common sense. Use some common sense to draw the line between trick and bug, it ain't that hard imo.
A listing of bugs u can and cannot use is a complete joke imo.
I have to agree here, yet I am 100% sure admins once have stated that this specific bug on ballistic could get you banned. I only play in this league for 3.5 years and I was aware of this.
In my eyes this bug is the same as using the boxes on bridge to prevent people from walking to the door pressure controller, that bug/exploit will also get you banned.
That's why I think this ban is 100% right, eventhough there still are some grey areas about what is right and what is wrong, the obvious cases have been pointed out and discussed in the past.
I also think that when you play for another clan (mercing) one should play as fair and nice as possible as the opposite team clearly uses allowing mercs to get a nice game going, therefor using this bug as a merc in a league match (it was not pre-forfeitted as you both seem to claim) is even worse.
- Status