I want to know why? (map bugs discussion)

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LOL why is Torp allowed to post anymore. Was kinda hoping admins would pull a fast one and delete his account while he was on vacation. My hopes have been dashed yet again:(

It's pretty much common sense what's a bug and what's not. If you don't have common sense you don't deserve to play the game or do any other basic activities. Things like feigning death on top of the gate on Mazon = common sense bug... If you're gonna use a texture bug by wallhugging it's pretty obvious you should be thinking "I'm dropping twice the height it should take me to crater and not dying, perhaps something is dodgy about what I'm doing" and if you're hiding inside walls that should be solid trying to snipe people, the overall likelihood is that you're being a complete jackass and abusing something. If you don't have enough sense in your head to open up your though process and look that over then again, you don't deserve to play the game.

I've never seen any "noob" exploit a bug and especially not intentionally, the people who abuse them are the MyM's and the DJ's who have explicit knowledge of the game and maps and who have gone out of their way to learn these bugs. Do you honestly think a complete noob is going to say "Yes, I feel like hammerjumping into a wall, just to see if it's invisible and perhaps I can sit inside it and snipe people from there and be a well annoying prick" ? That seems a bit unlikely to me, Torp.
 
This topic has gone a bit too much offtopic.

We succesfully tested few fixes yesterday for Golgotha, Bridge and Riv3.
Some of them works great like invisibility spot on bridge and outside of Golgotha (near siegetower). Some still needs some tweak or even totally different way of fixing.

So far we got 2 bug rapports from non admin players so it shows how ppl here are interested about fixes so please ... no offence please but fuck of with comments like admin do your job, sort you selfs, etc.
We're doing our job, can you say you do?
 
Well Smant, I agree and disagree with your comments. I knew about the Riverbed3 wall bug before I joined this league. It is a bug that is useful and often ends the map. If new players dont understand what is accepted and what isnt then there are going to be harsh consequences.

Brajan is right, this is off topic now. DJ hammered into an invisible wall bug to gain an advantage. This isnt fair, no matter how easy it is to stop. Thats all that needs to be said and its laughable if anyone defends it tbh.

I told MyM about 8 players using a wall bug on Bridge before. (Sticking into the wall as they jump off at the far end) I wont mention the players because they haven't done it since and it didnt affect the outcome of the match. MyM must have had a word as like I said they haven't repeated it, which I have seen them do twice prior to me saying so. At the end of the day its easy to spot the lameness of some actions in ut. What DJ did was a known exploit and is always considered lame to do so.
 
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smantie said:
Things like feigning death on top of the gate on Mazon = common sense bug... If you're gonna use a texture bug by wallhugging it's pretty obvious you should be thinking "I'm dropping twice the height it should take me to crater and not dying, perhaps something is dodgy about what I'm doing" and if you're hiding inside walls that should be solid trying to snipe people, the overall likelihood is that you're being a complete jackass and abusing something.
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I know what you're saying, but I don't think all bugs are equal. No-one's going to stop using the wallhugging bug, and they shouldn't. The difference between that and other bugs (like the one DJ used) is that you're not preventing other people from killing you. No player kills other players by nudging them off high ledges, so hugging a wall on your way down isn't stopping an opponent from hurting you - it's just like landing on a slope to reduce the smack you take from landing. Sure, wallhugging is a bug, but I think it's the last one anyone would want banned. But I think we're all for stopping things like hiding in walls, standng in certain spots to become invisible. I can't understand the people who want these to stay :confused:

By the way, I'm not particular friends with any of the admins and I'm not a brown-noser either, but as far as I can see they do a fuck of a lot of work for zero thanks and quite a lot of criticism. If I'd taken some of the abuse they have I'd have quit long ago with a hefty :fingers: to the whole place, so put a sock in it with the insults, unless you can do everything they do much better than you think they're doing it. No-one agrees with everything the admins do (not even themselves) but I can count on no fingers the number of appreciative comments I've seen them get in all the time I've been here.
 
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with hollow tree's on bridge or wall bugs (slowing your speed)

Things such as going into walls (which also require the use of hammering lol), using invisibility tricks such as defenders sniper spawn and so on, these are stupid. You cannot aim at something invisible.

You can however aim at hollow trees because the sniper rifle creeps out and you see the bullets spraying.

There is a marginal line about whats 'acceptable' lame and just completely stupid actions.
 
Useless said:
I know what you're saying, but I don't think all bugs are equal. No-one's going to stop using the wallhugging bug, and they shouldn't. The difference between that and other bugs (like the one DJ used) is that you're not preventing other people from killing you. No player kills other players by nudging them off high ledges, so hugging a wall on your way down isn't stopping an opponent from hurting you - it's just like landing on a slope to reduce the smack you take from landing. Sure, wallhugging is a bug, but I think it's the last one anyone would want banned. But I think we're all for stopping things like hiding in walls, standng in certain spots to become invisible. I can't understand the people who want these to stay :confused:
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I agree, not all bugs are equal. Something like blocking the door from opening on Rook is a lot more serious then a telebug on ballistic. Luckily the admins have IQ's above 40 and can see for themselves which bugs are bad and which aren't.

The problem with wallbugging though is that oftentimes your skin appears to be in a completely different place, for example I could sit atop somewhere sniping and appear to be far below on the ground. This can happen as Torp said on Bridge, and it can also happen in the window on Golgotha][AL, where a sniper in the window can suddenly appear on the ground below the window and scare the shit out of people trying to do a window launch. often causing them to shoot 6 rox into their own face. In other circumstances your skin gets sort of "jumpy" and makes it very difficult to hit with sniper, causing those "sniperonlydotcoms" which the league is full of to cry... but it makes it unfair and difficult for anyone who doesn't have the ability to flak/rox/combo to kill that person bugging.
 
McNeill said:
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with hollow tree's on bridge or wall bugs (slowing your speed)

Things such as going into walls (which also require the use of hammering lol), using invisibility tricks such as defenders sniper spawn and so on, these are stupid. You cannot aim at something invisible.

You can however aim at hollow trees because the sniper rifle creeps out and you see the bullets spraying.

There is a marginal line about whats 'acceptable' lame and just completely stupid actions.
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Agree here. Infact I have even used the Tree bug a lot recently. If you look up then your gun doesn't stick out and it has been easy to trick Salva and XB with it to get Second or do a boot jump.

These are minor things that are going to affect a map. 6v6 the trees hiding is hardly useful and is very lucky if you can get out at the exact time that you wont be seen. Sniping while stuck in a wall bug and appearing to slide down or hiding in an advantaged hiding spot is going to affect the outcome.
 
The first thing I have to mention is that this discussion if people are using these "exploits" on purpose or accidently is a big joke. Div1 players who usually dodge every 3 seconds all of a sudden forget to move, coincidentally at a spot where they turn invisible, coincidentally 10 times in a row?yes, sure

Its obvious that people who dislike dj are against him, his mates are in his favour, however, I try to be as objective as possible.

In my opinion the ban is not justified.

First of all it was not a league match, nothing more than a pug or a friendly as SVEK already forfeited. So a ban for such a minor affair is over the top no matter if it is justified or not.

Second of all league admins always talk about map authors copyright of maps, etc. However, when it comes to map exploits noone ever asks if they are intented or not. The trees on bridge seem to be intentional, for example. I dont think the glitch on ballistic is intended, however, I dont think there is no chance that it is. So before banning someone for something which might be intented u still should go by innocent until proven guilty.

The last point I want to mention is that for most old schoolers such a ban sounds ridiculous because league has always been like that. Some time ago in swap or Mi5 in the top matches people have always been using these spots and noone cared about it. These spots are just one of the many things that separate the good from the not so good players imo. Just like any normal rippershot, hammerlaunch, etc. Its not a bug, its a feature.
So I can understand dj when he is pissed. There is a big difference if someone is using a bot or radar, etc. because he is cheating intentionally, dj however just played as most of the div1 players always used to play and suddenly he is banned for something anyone has been doing for years.

The last point is where I have to critizise admins. Before suddenly enforcing the league rules in that way there should have been a warning. The league rules are not really clear in my opinion on that matter. This can be seen as many players who are definitely fair players who dont cheat have been using these spots for a long time without ever thinking this could be an abuse.
I think it is good that admins are trying to improve the league and make it fairer. However, they have to see that people have been playing by these rules already at a time where some of the admins didnt even know uta at all.

I think if there is a rule it needs to be clear. Either all spots get forbidden, none get forbidden or there is a list of forbidden spots. As long as rules are not clear admins will always have to justify their decisions, will get called corrupt, flamed, etc.

So keep up the good work and make a clear rule instead of banning people;)
 
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Some of you points are not valid and has been described in previous posts.

First of all IT WAS a league match on league server under league rules.
Also "sudden" rule enforcing is not true. Read previous posts.
 
Ive been playing for hmm...7 years in this league and never ever heard anything about people getting banned for something like that and I guess Im not the only one so it IS all of a sudden.

I read the entire thread, all u said was someone has been "warned". Yes, someone, but thats not the whole community. Actually, thats noone except that person.


Before hand CoH and SVEK decided on a forfeit coz SVEK didnt have players. However, CoH wanted to praccy and allowed mercs under these circumstances. Just coz a match was played on a league server it is not a league match.
And league rules, so what? Even public games are using league rules apart from the fact that there is no best of 14.
 
As long as I can remember there have been general rules in place not to use bugs although its been pretty vague admittedly but there have been times like punawa finishing bridge without charges where bugs have obviously been used in the past.

I can also not remember anyone complaining to an admin about an obvious use of a bug in a match, things like the glitches you have said like hollow trees etc or invisible spots on walls can obviously be abused on purpose but they can also be done unintentionally, unless you can distinguish the intent which admins obviously cant then that goes unpunished.
There have been complaints about ppl abusing invisible spots in matches fairly recently but they have all been in positions that you couldnt say 100% thats its on purpose although sometimes it seems impossible that it could be anything else but there is still that doubt and as such it gets put down as a warning without punishment.

Now I fail how to see that going out of your way to HJ to a spot to hide and snipe or whatever can be unintentional, thats the simple reason as to why DJ got a ban in this case.

I have no doubt that there have been bugs used in matches, either opposition didnt care/ didnt notice or just didnt bother to report it, you cant really hold admins responsible for that, they usually only get involved in things like this when asked to.
 
since it´s forbidden to quote a post with a ! .......... :o


i have to type that i agree with DB´s post (somewhere near the start of the thread)
that a list of all known and forbidden bugs would be best 4 all.
 
MeetYourMaker said:
There have been complaints about ppl abusing invisible spots in matches fairly recently but they have all been in positions that you couldnt say 100% thats its on purpose although sometimes it seems impossible that it could be anything else but there is still that doubt and as such it gets put down as a warning without punishment.

Now I fail how to see that going out of your way to HJ to a spot to hide and snipe or whatever can be unintentional, thats the simple reason as to why DJ got a ban in this case.

I have no doubt that there have been bugs used in matches, either opposition didnt care/ didnt notice or just didnt bother to report it, you cant really hold admins responsible for that, they usually only get involved in things like this when asked to.
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Someone accidently hammerjumping into the wall on ballistic is about as probable as someone accidently using the invisible spots 10 times in a row.
Main reason why it wasnt reported is that most people wouldnt consider it a bug.

All Im trying to say is that these bugs have always been there, always been used and noone ever got punished. As u say the rules are pretty vague. Is it intended that u can shoot the generator with rockets from bunker, ripper on lava, etc.? Probably not, so if I see someone doing it in a match he gets banned all of a sudden now for a thing which has been done for years? If u say this is ridiculous, I agree...just as ridiculous as banning someone for jumping into some crappy wall where he can snipe for a minute to be out of ammo and useless after. There is no difference in these 2 things except that rules are far more clear on things such as rippershots (Making use of any map specific bug (known or unknown) which prevents the defenders from effectively defending the map is prohibited.)

And now its the point again where I ask for clear league rules to avoid all this.
 
1) it's only a 2 weeks ban so it's not a big deal,
2) that bug is lame, like MYM said "they usually only get involved in things like this when asked to" and it's look like Coh did report it to the admins.
3) and i agree with some of u that r requesting a bug list, but some bugs are just common sense, u can't compare the wall hug bug on riv3 with the invinsible spot bug on balii
 
The bug on ballistic actually hasn't been known for years, Its only really last year or so I've become aware of it.

Invisibility I agree doing 10 times in a row, by certain players which I won't name is really lame, but sometimes it happens unintentionally.

Example: Autorip defence sniping, sometimes depending on your angle to the window you will go invisible, but generally people try to cover most of thier body so they are harder to hit. Doing so means you have higher chance to become invisible as you tend to go same position everytime. Most of the time I'm sure that player doesn't even realize because its hard to reproduce it.

Hammer jumping INTO a WALL, is the lowest off all the lame tricks and anyone doing it, even 8-9 years ago should have been punished. Clan mate or not, if wish is caught doing it he should get the same treatment as DJ, so my opinion is completely unbiassed.

All I want is that this doesn't turn into a witch hunt, every little bug will probably be reported intentional or unintentional, there is a thin line as i stated between acceptable lame and just plane going out your way to be lame.

Wall bugs, hard to actually always pull off, you need to know exact places on walls, its actually more skillfull to connect it everytime, I don't classify this as bannable bug tbh.

Same with hollow trees on bridge. If your smart you will maybe die once and instantly know where the person is, its a free easy kill for you.

Last time I remember people took such a fuss over 'bugs' was the book jumps on golgotha, those where funny :)
 
who says he hammerjumped into that spot? use some BT and voila... and mc, I know that spot for 3years at least when ias was popular. :P
 
Useless said:
See, brajan? It DOES HAPPEN!
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Why bother reporting it then?
Besides the only person bothered to talk with me directly already told me it was still a league match (confirmed with league schedules and bookings). Having that in mind decision has been made and nothing will change it.
 
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