The Dutch Situation atm...

[jwer_NL]

What about the current war? It's not in the past and it probably won't be for a very long time. And it was one we started.

If you talk about the USA - Iraq war didn't i allready mention that it would probably never have happened if Iraq wouldn't have had oil? It's not BASED on christianity... the yugoslavian war is also not BASED on christianity, tho it effects these wars it isn't the first and main reason they started...

 

[Hector]

I believe there are no religious wars and never have been. Wars are about political control, controlling resources and land, repelling immigrants, etc. Religion is simply the cover for it and the fuel to power and control an army.

"Opium of the people" and all that. I see no God-driven religious wars, only religion wielded as a giant hammer by leaders who want to stay in power and please the gullibile voting masses while gaining more power for themselves.

 

[RoTTeD]

if didnt based on religion why then serbian wanted take out of his country islam ppl?.Just try to explain me that.Kosobo was attacked by serbian , why then?. And during this year have been many incidents between islamists and christian in kosobo ,why then?.In sarajevo have been many incidents , kills between croats and bosnian ppl , why then?

And if wasnt based on religion why then ppl of the same country dont feell as a group as a reall country? cos there were differences between them and those diferences were religions.And for those differences they fought between them.Cos there wasnt any differences about political system between them or somth like that.They wanted the power for their "ethnic group" and those groups were cos of religions.

 

[AnTi]

Islams terrorists say that they fighting for their god ok... i doubt their god want to see ppl kidnapped and then how they cut them off heads, thats just insane and those ppl arent normal
One of my friend said they should build a wall around Iraq instad of Israel and make it full of water, that could stop world terrorism.
I say thats bullshit that terrorists from iraq saying they doing this for their 'god' (but what god would see this madness?) doesnt mean everyone are like them. I dont know much about their religion they kidnapped polish woman not so long ago...
Now they kidnapping woman, i thought biggest respect in their country goes to woman?
(she lived in iraq)

Same goes for kock kuk klan (dont give a fuck about their name) idiots in white saying they doing something for God... bs bs bs! Im against killing ppl but i wouldnt mind see those fookers dying.

I doubt there is a religion that allows you to kill others without a reason.
Yes there are some thigs like 'eye for eye' etc but ffs its year 2004, we live civilizaded world, still some of politics cant understand that.

Everything what is bad on this world, all what ppl do including kidpans, killing in the name of their gods is just wrong, they dont have any fate, they dont have even brain.

Im VERY tolerant person! and im a catholic as well, maybe thats why i understand everything so good dunno, but why for example russia or france cant be so tolerant to ppl wth different religion?

Went a bit offtopic and soz for gramma

 

[Hector]

if didnt based on religion why then serbian wanted take out of his country islam ppl?.Just try to explain me that.Kosobo was attacked by serbian , why then?.

I'll try to give an alternative reason although I don't know too much about it. But when the Kosovans were denied the independance that the other provinces of Yugoslavia ( Slovenia, Croatia, etc) had been given they might be upset. And why would they want independance and why didn't the Serbs want to give them independance? Because Kosovo is a province riich in stuff, minerals, etc. That's why the Serbs were happy enough to massacre them , they didn't care about their religion (they had lived together peacefully for ages), they didn't care about THEM at all. They just wanted the richness of the province. And the Kosovans wanted independance. Bit like Chechnya really.

And I didn't even need to mention religion once

 

[sneez]

if didnt based on religion why then serbian wanted take out of his country islam ppl?.Just try to explain me that.Kosobo was attacked by serbian , why then?. And during this year have been many incidents between islamists and christian in kosobo ,why then?.In sarajevo have been many incidents , kills between croats and bosnian ppl , why then?

And if wasnt based on religion why then ppl of the same country dont feell as a group as a reall country? cos there were differences between them and those diferences were religions.And for those differences they fought between them.Cos there wasnt any differences about political system between them or somth like that.They wanted the power for their "ethnic group" and those groups were cos of religions.

Yes you're right. But that's why the Netherlands have a political system WITHOUT any religion. (Yes there are religious parties here, but they aren't very 'powerfull'.) We're free to speak/say whatever we want. Now some dude made a movie about Muslim woman. And he got shot.
Some journalistists asked opinions of random muslim's at the streets. And they all said his murder was justified .

 

[Geo]

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil -- hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars -- must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

 

[RoTTeD]

I dont know anything about the actual situation in nd , well i only know what news said just that.And thats not enough to try to make an opionion of the situation, well for me itsnt enough.I would like to see or read different programs that talk more about it cos with only "an islamist school has been destroyed in nd tonight" i cant say anything about it.
About my last post i only wanted to ""show"" that we think we are civilizaded or we are free of barbarian acts or things like that , in europe we have had the strongest wars and we still have our religion conflicts and well have them.Cos always ,not cos we are less civilizaded or not, the worst conflicts come from little incidents like this one in nd.And the history its full of these things.

 

[JACKEL]

well it's taking the piss at the moment.
now all of a sudden they're arresting people and everything as if they couldnt do that like a few weeks ago or even earlier.
dutch government is just shit because of that, too busy getting money of us, money money money thats what they're all after.
and that wouter bos guy he's shite aswell, all he does is five shit comments about the present government, but zalm and balkenende are just taking the piss outta him.
he has no back bone as well!

we have to few good politcians in holland, one's who have back bones and stand up like van agt, and others.

 

[BRaiNRaiN]

There's 2 things in this post, and i'll start out by adressing the political party subject. Mister Wilders stepped out of the VVD a LONG time before the death of Van Gogh because he wasn't pleased with their policy. By default anyone that steps out of a party in the parlement will be called a "Group" even if it's only 1 person, and so by default the "Group Wilders" was formed, this was a couple of months ago. Therefore it has nothing to do with the death of Van Gogh and trying to ride on the fear of this country.

Yea he stepped out the VVD a long time ago yeah, before Van Gogh's dead indeed. But just a few days after Van Gogh's dead he made his "group" official. That way he got the publicity and with his kinda "agressive" point of view on terrorism, he'd probably get alot of votes if there were any elections now. (I know there wont be any for 2 years, but he'll probably refere to this whole conflict in his campaign). But what my point is, is that he is in my eyes just a "lijkenpikker". Dutchies will know what I mean.

 

[jwer_NL]

if didnt based on religion why then serbian wanted take out of his country islam ppl?.Just try to explain me that.Kosobo was attacked by serbian , why then?. And during this year have been many incidents between islamists and christian in kosobo ,why then?.In sarajevo have been many incidents , kills between croats and bosnian ppl , why then?

And if wasnt based on religion why then ppl of the same country dont feell as a group as a reall country? cos there were differences between them and those diferences were religions.And for those differences they fought between them.Cos there wasnt any differences about political system between them or somth like that.They wanted the power for their "ethnic group" and those groups were cos of religions.

@ Rotted:As far as i know this isn't completely true, the conflict has mostly been because of land issues. If a few people want a state and start shooting and threatening people then without a decent gouvernment you have no choice then to pick sides or get raped by both sides, and the conflict grows... As far as i know there where people that felt more related to Turkey and wanted a state or a part of yugoslavia and in order to get the support of other country's they converted themselves to the Islamic religion. As far as i heared these people are not very islamic though, most of them still consume alcohol and don't pray 5 times a day.

Now i don't know everything about it, but i've been told the whole "being islamic" thing in Yugoslavia is a bit overstated...

@ Breen: I don't see or hear more from Wilders then before Van Gogh died imo... He was on the tele a lot when he left the VVD and i have seen him afterwards in a few shows before Van Gogh was killed and now a little after Van Gogh was killed, but to me he does not seem to be over-exposed...

 

[Snuggs]

about religions............

IMO

people can belive in what they want.....even in a piece of shit...everything ok 4 me


but

if any of this stupid f00kers wants to change my way of live...my rights...my liberty
(whatever ...christians, muslims..sientology...)

i would kick him to the moon...with a real big weed-smile on my face ..........FFS

tolerance is ok 4 me...i got many good muslim friends
but they think like a european guy (with rights 4 the women),
and not like a stupd midage-fag who needs puplic decapitations or stonings.....


i think timothy leary said that...a few years ago :

" the most important thing in the world is...the fight against the stupidity "




useless

 

[Mughi]

i dont c the part that they say anything bout anything in a form of jihad(holy war).

allmost evry christian knows you CANT kill whatever happens. you cant take revenge on people by killing them. (and yes thats written)

but in the koran there's said that if some1 kills your wife you can kill his 2 (in dutch we say oog om oog tand om tand)

yes i disagree with the fact that you cant love the same gender as your self, but they dotn say: kill the gay ones they are bad. they say: if you live by the rules of God you wont marry or anything thats further than a friendship with the same gender as your self couse you will end in hell.

Sorry, anyone who considers christianity a "peaceful" religion hasnt actually read their bible and doesnt practice it, they practice "hippy-ism" with a sprinkle of the few "nice" bits of the bible through it.

Same with Islam.

And, in general, I can not fault people who do that - how many would call themselves christian and agree that a women who was raped belonged to her rapist, or insist that children and grandchildren are punished for someones misdemenour.

Who could condem child abuse, yet follow the teachings of a man who had a 6 year old wife?

And these are just a few examples of how, if you follow christianity and islam as they are laid out in the holy books, where life can go horribly, horribly wrong.

Bush and his "moral majority" piss me off no end - how can he claim to be moral AND christian.

PAH

Anyway, before I ramble off topic completely ....

As far as I see it, its a minority causing a big problem. The majority are tolerant, the minority are intolerant. When they try to force their views on the majority and get nowhere but are backed by god, or allah in their actions and view themselves are being rewarded by their deity, thats when it gets really bad.

Its not a racial issue as far as I can tell - if it were all Turks/Morrocans/Arabs etc etc would be part of the problem - though they are in danger from those that cant tell the difference. Its a religious intolerance problem.

 

[Carnage`]

But is it truely based on religion ? I don't think so for all of them. same as football hooligans doing it for the club my arse! They just want to get rid of agression and riot.

I think these terrorists just enjoy terrorising people rather then doing it for the Jihad.

Why do they claim so? maybe 2 things. It gives them more followers. And it will make the people they terrorise rebel against that belief and then the believers will rebel against the non believers wich leads to getting worse and worse.

IMO the police is getting it's knee down and only now we know how serious the situation is they are allowed to react this way if not we'd all be moany bitches about it.... oh the police is 2 authoritive they shouldn't use so much force.

We can't let the small group that's causing this mess get the upperhand.

Because of this racist could get an upper hand 2 like hitler got his upperhand when germany was in a very awkward position. If this happens our tollerance goes and the society we built goes down the drain.

 

[Wintermute]

There's an important distinction to be made here.

Having a problem with Muslims forming colonies in the West rather than actually coming here to live and be a part of us is not racism. Someone doesn't choose to have a particular colour of skin, but they DO choose to adhere to a set of beliefs.

It is frankly unacceptable to have people living in Europe who absolutely hate and despise the freedoms that we all have.

Many, many people came to the UK and NL to ESCAPE from oppressive Arabic Culture (and please, let's stop calling it Islamic Culture - it's *arabic* culture)

There's a great author called Ibn Warriq - he's a former muslim, converted to atheism after living in Europe for years - and he's one of a growing number of voices urging people to not be afraid to call out Islam for the mess that it is... you are not being racist when you say Muslims have to be more tolerant of eveyrone else if they are to live here, that's just the way it is.

I.

 

[Useless]

they DO choose to adhere to a set of beliefs.

When children are born into a Muslim family, they don't have a choice as to which religion they want to follow. They are brought up as Muslim and it's made clear to them that dumping this religion is unnacceptable, unless they fancy the idea of being completely excommunicated from their family, with the possibility of being murdered by their loving relatives. Not much choice apparent there...

I get mixed up with names of religions but I'm pretty sure it's Islam that this shit happens in. If not, ignore me.

 

[Mughi]

When children are born into a Muslim family, they don't have a choice as to which religion they want to follow. They are brought up as Muslim and it's made clear to them that dumping this religion is unnacceptable, unless they fancy the idea of being completely excommunicated from their family, with the possibility of being murdered by their loving relatives. Not much choice apparent there...

I get mixed up with names of religions but I'm pretty sure it's Islam that this shit happens in. If not, ignore me.

Sounds like Catholisism to me. With the possible exception of the murder, and even then, there are extremists in every religion.

 

[pykenike]

well to come back on topic...

I won't consider myself as an extremly right-winged person however i think right now, and that's because the athmosphere here in holland

as we all know: relligion, culture and way of thinking is based at your experiances in your neighbourhood and what you learn from parents and friends.
In holland live quite some Muslims. 1.000.000 which isn't nessesarely bad for a country, i know we needed those people after WW II and it was naive from the goverment to think they would go away after the work was done.
but this is the situation now, and we should try make the best of it, and i seriously tried that. but my constant experiances with muslims made me how i think now, and that's right winged.. (atleast at my thinking about people from other countries)


my own experiance says constantly the same, there are groups of muslims who constantly pick on you, call you names or just trying to drive you to a level that you say somthing back, that they have an excuse to begin a fight or summon..

ofcourse this is a small percentage of the community but still, they should adept thereselfs, and when they can't, they should be sended back

when people go to another country they should prove that they WANT to live in that country, so that's speaking the language, have a job, and doesn't have big crime's at there name. when they can't reach those things within, let's say 4 years. The goverment should send them back...

Searching for the dialogue is naive nowadays imo, we did that so many times, and still there doesn't happen a thing, and when muslims say they are against those extremist, they should at least try to ban those extremist. they should warn the pollice when threy know someone with such plans (like killing Theo van Gogh)

 

[JACKEL]

There's an important distinction to be made here.

Having a problem with Muslims forming colonies in the West rather than actually coming here to live and be a part of us is not racism. Someone doesn't choose to have a particular colour of skin, but they DO choose to adhere to a set of beliefs.

It is frankly unacceptable to have people living in Europe who absolutely hate and despise the freedoms that we all have.

Many, many people came to the UK and NL to ESCAPE from oppressive Arabic Culture (and please, let's stop calling it Islamic Culture - it's *arabic* culture)

well put

 

[BRaiNRaiN]

well to come back on topic...

I won't consider myself as an extremly right-winged person however i think right now, and that's because the athmosphere here in holland

as we all know: relligion, culture and way of thinking is based at your experiances in your neighbourhood and what you learn from parents and friends.
In holland live quite some Muslims. 1.000.000 which isn't nessesarely bad for a country, i know we needed those people after WW II and it was naive from the goverment to think they would go away after the work was done.
but this is the situation now, and we should try make the best of it, and i seriously tried that. but my constant experiances with muslims made me how i think now, and that's right winged.. (atleast at my thinking about people from other countries)


my own experiance says constantly the same, there are groups of muslims who constantly pick on you, call you names or just trying to drive you to a level that you say somthing back, that they have an excuse to begin a fight or summon..

ofcourse this is a small percentage of the community but still, they should adept thereselfs, and when they can't, they should be sended back

when people go to another country they should prove that they WANT to live in that country, so that's speaking the language, have a job, and doesn't have big crime's at there name. when they can't reach those things within, let's say 4 years. The goverment should send them back...

Searching for the dialogue is naive nowadays imo, we did that so many times, and still there doesn't happen a thing, and when muslims say they are against those extremist, they should at least try to ban those extremist. they should warn the pollice when threy know someone with such plans (like killing Theo van Gogh)

U seriously think that all this is good for Holland? By sending people back to their country u'll split families and thereby generate more hate towards the government and the dutch society. Which can only involve in worse situations I think.