its a people which had their own language and society before russia occpuied them and they also have a different religion than the russians. id say thats more than enuff justification to make it a free state.
Russian School Siege
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religion is no argument if there r equally accepted
if i remember correctly Chechen r somehow oppressed or at least russians look down upon them
i understand y they want a free state
i dont think putin is going to allow this to happen though
if i remember correctly Chechen r somehow oppressed or at least russians look down upon them
i understand y they want a free state
i dont think putin is going to allow this to happen though
Thats a difficult one to justify - Scotland had its own language and society and religion before England occupied it.Sauron said:
Before that, there were umpteen Kingdoms in Scotland before they got taken over one by one.
And thats just an example. Most curent nations are very very different from what they were 300 years ago, 400 years ago - you cant expect current governments to happily redraw lines to what they were in the 1600s (If thats when this all started)
Terrorism should never back a government into any decision. Otherwise, its nothing more than the most violent minority dictating what happens to the majority. Its nothing more than bullying. If the majority of Chechnya wants independance, then it may well be the easiest way out of this mess. However, if the majority wish to remain part of Russia, the terrorist acts should stop (of course they wouldnt, but in an ideal world they would). Without some sort of referrendum in the area(which is never gonna happen) we will never know for sure whether this is an act of an oppressed people with no political voice, or simply violence for the sake of violence with a pretense at a cause.
My view is that if they were an oppressed people with no political voice they would be going after political targets and I would have more sympathy, but they prefer theatres, hospitals and schools. What exactly do they expect to happen. That the military or government will fall over themselves to comly with their demands? A course of action that would assure further acts of violence as you prove that it works.
«)Fîrë$±ørm(» said:
No Putin likes the oil fields waaaay too much.
The only way to stop the atrocities is :
Moscow should treat the Chechens (or ist Chechenyans) much better. I was in russia when the Chechen(-yan) President got killed (in May), after 7 unsuccesful attempts
. And all the Chechen(yan)s in Moscow were really avoided, controlled by police, FSB and other people. When I say all Chechen(yan)s it's all of them, women, kids and everyone was considered as a potential terrorist. Chechen(yan)s are really looked down uppon by the Russians only if this stops and if a certain respect comes from both russian and chechen(yan) sides.
Chechenya should start accepting Russians and Russian help. And not shoot at any russian putting foot on the piece of land.
Putin is a smart man, I hope he'll figure out a way
, other than the way of blood of course
The funny thing about this Don't Let Terrorists Influence Government thing is that the rebels feel like asking "Hang on, why is it not ok for us to fight back when we didn't ask to be taken over in the first place?".
Remember Chechnya was gobbled up by the Russian Empire and have spent a lot of time since then fighting for their independance. Russia want Chechnya because of the oil pipelines. People are being massacred once again for oil.
Remember Chechnya was gobbled up by the Russian Empire and have spent a lot of time since then fighting for their independance. Russia want Chechnya because of the oil pipelines. People are being massacred once again for oil.
Putin promised the annihilation of terrorism to get elected, guess he'll start making good on his word soon.
Little does he know that you can NEVER take em all out, their spirits and hearts are full of freedom and this will never leave by russians shooting down their houses.
One good thing to come from it, Chechnya is full of warlords and sought after criminals , cnn called it smugglers paradise. bullets have become a tradinggood. I am sure that removing those threads will be good for the stability, after all the civilians want something else than all the clans , peace.
Little does he know that you can NEVER take em all out, their spirits and hearts are full of freedom and this will never leave by russians shooting down their houses.
One good thing to come from it, Chechnya is full of warlords and sought after criminals , cnn called it smugglers paradise. bullets have become a tradinggood. I am sure that removing those threads will be good for the stability, after all the civilians want something else than all the clans , peace.
Then why would putin and their goverment stop one of the country largest oil exportists? Doing that has only put even more misery into their country, Putin only likes warmongering, much like bushcrack.IceDragon said:No Putin likes the oil fields waaaay too much.
The only way to stop the atrocities is :
Moscow should treat the Chechens (or ist Chechenyans) much better. I was in russia when the Chechen(-yan) President got killed (in May), after 7 unsuccesful attempts
Chechen(yan)s are really looked down uppon by the Russians only if this stops and if a certain respect comes from both russian and chechen(yan) sides.
Chechenya should start accepting Russians and Russian help. And not shoot at any russian putting foot on the piece of land.
Putin is a smart man, I hope he'll figure out a way
Cassius said:
Because: He targeted presidency, the guy wanted to go for the elections (putin didn't like that) and, as most rich russian people, he was not very respectful of laws, taxes and so on...sooo Mr Vladimir had the opportunity of putting a dangerous rival in a bird cage.
Cassius said:
He may be a bit like bush-liking warmongering- but he is much smarter. He was a former chief in the KGB, Bush was an alcoholic.
Cassius said:
Putin promised to raise russia's income by 5% in three years, and he actually did it
There are politicians sticking to what they promised
Oh and BTW go to Russia before talking about things you don't have a clue about
/
Its the method of "fighting back" thats the problem Hector.Hector said:
Slaughtering school kids, theatre goers and hospital patients can hardly be justified as rebelling against an oppressive regime.
The mess there is just getting worse and worse as what seems to have been a reasonable "Get the hell out of our damn country" has been taken over by "Get your infidels out of our country, we wish Sharia Law, you cannot understand, you are evil". I cant see any peaceful end to it in our lifetimes. If they get their independance, whats to stop it turning into another Taliban-ruled Afghanistan. Which will mean the US and allies are more than likely to be compelled to start a war there. For the time being they are leaving the Russians to it. The people that are going to be hurt the most are the Chechens that are not involved no matter wether they remain part of Russia, or become independant.
Mughi said:
Sure, I think what terrorists do is frightening and hideous but I have no idea what compels them to take those courses of action and I can't pretend to sympathise with their plight because I haven't experienced it. I also can't imagine what it must be like to be a destitute Russian desperate for my government to make my country a useful place to live. What is obvious though is that there are some very angry people that will stop at nothing to make their point and the people they want to make the point to don't want to listen.
I've been to Russia you numbnut, I know what kind of living conditions they have, so stop opening your mouth to people you don't know.If you'd like pics i can scan them for you np.IceDragon said:Because: He targeted presidency, the guy wanted to go for the elections (putin didn't like that) and, as most rich russian people, he was not very respectful of laws, taxes and so on...sooo Mr Vladimir had the opportunity of putting a dangerous rival in a bird cage.
He may be a bit like bush-liking warmongering- but he is much smarter. He was a former chief in the KGB, Bush was an alcoholic.
Putin promised to raise russia's income by 5% in three years, and he actually did it
There are politicians sticking to what they promised
Oh and BTW go to Russia before talking about things you don't have a clue about
/
i reckon both of you gimps should stfu really, it aint like russia is like a small little village.
post links or urls if you wanna verbal abuse each other, cos i dont think your visites to russia and a few pictures represent the entire country of mother russia.
no offense but i've been to a lot of different countries but it still doesnt make me the expert on it.
post links or urls if you wanna verbal abuse each other, cos i dont think your visites to russia and a few pictures represent the entire country of mother russia.
no offense but i've been to a lot of different countries but it still doesnt make me the expert on it.
More than half of the hostages now confirmed dead and the death toll rising. A tragedy of immesurable proportions. This may take second place behind 9/11 in the history in terrorism in terms of number of casualties inflicted by a single attack. The footage of the funerals is heartbreaking. 2 year old children being laid to rest with half of their family along side them across three generations. So many berived people in one place. Brings a tear to my eye.
Cassius said:I've been to Russia you numbnut, I know what kind of living conditions they have, so stop opening your mouth to people you don't know.If you'd like pics i can scan them for you np.
sorry man, I was abit out of control and I think Propain is right let's stop pretending to be right (though I'm right to me and you're right for you
)
@ Mughi - you talking of clans, or Kingdoms. Never thought Scotland had more than 1 actual King at any point, and I wouldn't class clan leaders as Kings, even though they might have had their own areas of exclusive influence.
@ Rest - no matter what you think of Russia, terrorists torturing/shooting children, especially in the full glare of the media, will do nothing to aid the Chechen cause or similar ones. Acts of barbarity against children are about the one thing which still gets people off their apathetic asses these days.
Frankly anyone who commits atrocities against Children is already fighting for a lost cause.
@ Rest - no matter what you think of Russia, terrorists torturing/shooting children, especially in the full glare of the media, will do nothing to aid the Chechen cause or similar ones. Acts of barbarity against children are about the one thing which still gets people off their apathetic asses these days.
Frankly anyone who commits atrocities against Children is already fighting for a lost cause.