Russian School Siege
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Umm, compromise? the hostage takers were demanding an independent islamic state for chechnya, which i dont think is a compromise for russia, having its own local government would be, like wales has its own assembly but is essentially run by westminster
I'm talking generally, in reply to the earlier question. The fact remains that unless compromises can be reached before matters escalate to this level then we'll be faced time and time again with 9/11, Kids being massacred, gassings on the underground, etc. While people accept this, all the condemnation in the world won't prevent a single act of violence.
What the Chechens did recently was horrendous, as is the history of Chechnya' and Russia's war. There is a history of civilians being used in their battles, on both sides. They want independance and Russia don' t want then to have it. A lot of modern wars have their history in long centuries of colonising wars, as you know. There's only one way forward IMO.
What the Chechens did recently was horrendous, as is the history of Chechnya' and Russia's war. There is a history of civilians being used in their battles, on both sides. They want independance and Russia don' t want then to have it. A lot of modern wars have their history in long centuries of colonising wars, as you know. There's only one way forward IMO.
Just heard on the news that russian military and police forces cleared the school scene and cleared a lot of debris and stuff with bulldozers. according to the journalist there would be no way to investigate what happened 
man GIVE US THE INFO.
it is all speculation now, every news agency has a different pov. somebody mentioned it being a accident (the explosive going off then forces moving in). What i just understood russian forces went in, stumbled on a boobytrap which made the roof collapse and then the killing began. we'll never know the truth now, just what the spindocters tell us
man GIVE US THE INFO.it is all speculation now, every news agency has a different pov. somebody mentioned it being a accident (the explosive going off then forces moving in). What i just understood russian forces went in, stumbled on a boobytrap which made the roof collapse and then the killing began. we'll never know the truth now, just what the spindocters tell us
They allowed journalists to trample all over the ruins of the building thereby destroying any useful forensic evidence that was there anyway so not much will be lost with the buildings destruction. Most of the answers will come from the survivers, both hostages and hostage takers. I imagain the local people would rather that the whole building was destroyed so that they could move on in their lives and forget about the horrors that took place within those walls.
M
Maz
Damn media , every fucking story you hear is diffrent - the story i heard was that theyre were expolisves taped around the basketball hoops in the gym. At one point some of the tape let lose , this explosives started detonating , and the roof started collapsing.Only at that point kids starting running out while the hostagetakers were shooting , soldiers burst in to help but with very little succes , in fact i heard that some soldiers got killed or something.-=Dark_Shadow=- said:
Every news i read or listened to gives out a diffrent story , its starting to become annoying never knowing the facts , or knowing wich af all these stories IS fact
meh , wichever one is , the situation was still really bad 
-=Dark_Shadow=- said:
I am pretty sure ppl want to find out who is responsible first, the process of moving on is terribly difficult , if you think it will be easier by destroying the prove i would have to disagree with you.
btw nobody is making any constructive posts, which makes this a very strange / sensitive thread, i think it is great that many ppl are very moved by this "event". anybody any ideas on what's next? i dont expect russia to do nothing, and i certaintly expect the usa to engage more political contact with russia. they could use an ally in this costly war.
Wasnt Chechnya given its independance when the Soviet broke up. The differing warlords tore it apart until it went back to Russia (as peacefully as one can expect with half a dozen warlords each fighting for control).
did a quick google!
Synopsis
The Russian-Chechen conflict we know today began decades ago with the attempt of the Muslim province to secede in 1810. Russia's attempts to keep the oil pipeline holding province has been successful but violent and continues today.
In 1990, after the fall of the U.S.S.R. many nations seceded from the Soviet Republic, including Georgia, Latvia, and Ukraine. Russia had several reasons to keep Chechnya, but they wanted to make an example out of Chechnya and attack the breakaway province in order to maintain ownership. When former Chechen president Dudaev declared independance in 1994, Boris Yeltsin declared war, and Former Chechen president Muskhadov declared independance again in 1999 and on and off fighting has continued.
President Vladimir Putin continues to attack Chechnya, today in order to stifle the Muslim movement against Russia.
Synopsis
The Russian-Chechen conflict we know today began decades ago with the attempt of the Muslim province to secede in 1810. Russia's attempts to keep the oil pipeline holding province has been successful but violent and continues today.
In 1990, after the fall of the U.S.S.R. many nations seceded from the Soviet Republic, including Georgia, Latvia, and Ukraine. Russia had several reasons to keep Chechnya, but they wanted to make an example out of Chechnya and attack the breakaway province in order to maintain ownership. When former Chechen president Dudaev declared independance in 1994, Boris Yeltsin declared war, and Former Chechen president Muskhadov declared independance again in 1999 and on and off fighting has continued.
President Vladimir Putin continues to attack Chechnya, today in order to stifle the Muslim movement against Russia.
Hmmm, not even as simple as that PP.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3293441.stm
They "kinda" got independance but not really. It looks like a right political mess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3293441.stm
They "kinda" got independance but not really. It looks like a right political mess.
Spoke with some people about this and they said: "poor russian people....evil chechens, hopefully Putin will kick their asses".
But after i told them, what russia did to the chechens in the mid 90s (1994?) they saw, that it ain't so easy.
People get too easily influenced by the media.
It's sad, but russia started already a revenge campaign, without TV cameras. So you can imagine that this campaign will be brutal.
Like IceDragon already said:
RIP to all the peeps who will die during this conflict caused by few selfish leaders.
But after i told them, what russia did to the chechens in the mid 90s (1994?) they saw, that it ain't so easy.
People get too easily influenced by the media.
It's sad, but russia started already a revenge campaign, without TV cameras. So you can imagine that this campaign will be brutal.
Like IceDragon already said:
RIP to all the peeps who will die during this conflict caused by few selfish leaders.
Bart said:
Too right. It's ridiculous to assume that countries perpetrate horrendous acts of violence for no reason. A school gets massacred and after the first waves of horror people have to ask "Hang on, why? And how do we stop it happening again?". Who gives a fuck about Zimbabwe? Who cared about Rwanda? It's going on all the time and the only things we know about are the media tell us to sell papers.
Both of the worlds major conflicts now involve people without a state, Palestine and Chechnya both have similar wish lists and are opposed by a large and well funded enemy. Another potential which has kicked off before is Kurdistan. This is the way the world is going it seems and where does it end. I bet most people feel a degree of sympathy for oppressed people but if the current problems were resolved, where would be next? East Timor again? Northern Cyprus again? Western Sahara? Bosnia? Somewhere for the Klingons to live? And the whole thing is complicated by religion and secualr beliefs. It's easy to fight a country, but in a situation where oppressed people can take the war anywhere, it's a whole lot harder to fight them. If ever there was a third world war, this is it IMO. The propblem is that constant appeasement to wannabee countries will just encourage all the other nutters and their support will come from all over the world, like Al Queada. Not that I'm saying their aren't worthy causes. I just wonder where it will stop.
I reckon that peace will almost certainly come if people can make money and raise their standard of living. That's what has happened in Cyprus and Kurdistan. Plenty of people in both of these countries have a grievance against an oppressor, especially Kurdistan with Turkey. But the Kurds are getting seriously more wealthy and are prepared to put up with a little international crap because they live in relative peace and have a decent economy. Most Kurds would settle for an autonomous area within Iraq (which is what they have) rather that go for complete nation statehood and risk a war. Most oppressed countries are poor compared to their oppressors. And most oppressors will buy into this because to do otherwise would risk sanctions at best or military intervention at worst.
You can bet most Chechnyans and Ingussettians are gutted about the murder of children by their own people, if that's what it was. Can you imagine the situation for Blair or Bush if they adopted a policy that purposely targetted children?
Anyway, that's a drunken ramble, but it's what I think
I reckon that peace will almost certainly come if people can make money and raise their standard of living. That's what has happened in Cyprus and Kurdistan. Plenty of people in both of these countries have a grievance against an oppressor, especially Kurdistan with Turkey. But the Kurds are getting seriously more wealthy and are prepared to put up with a little international crap because they live in relative peace and have a decent economy. Most Kurds would settle for an autonomous area within Iraq (which is what they have) rather that go for complete nation statehood and risk a war. Most oppressed countries are poor compared to their oppressors. And most oppressors will buy into this because to do otherwise would risk sanctions at best or military intervention at worst.
You can bet most Chechnyans and Ingussettians are gutted about the murder of children by their own people, if that's what it was. Can you imagine the situation for Blair or Bush if they adopted a policy that purposely targetted children?
Anyway, that's a drunken ramble, but it's what I think
well no matter how u look at it with or without media telling u what to do...
terrorism has a new dimension
usually a gov't doesnt send soldiers in to kill civilians but to regain control - ofc there will be civilian casualties (im NOT saying its the right thing to do but the goal is not to kill civilians - ofc some soldiers r dumbfucks and take advantage of this...)
those terrorists took 1000 hostages (mostly children) to get the worlds attention - they prolly didnt even want to achieve anything but attention and revenge
no matter how much hatred u got... killing innocent lives is horrible
my thoughts^^
terrorism has a new dimension
usually a gov't doesnt send soldiers in to kill civilians but to regain control - ofc there will be civilian casualties (im NOT saying its the right thing to do but the goal is not to kill civilians - ofc some soldiers r dumbfucks and take advantage of this...)
those terrorists took 1000 hostages (mostly children) to get the worlds attention - they prolly didnt even want to achieve anything but attention and revenge
no matter how much hatred u got... killing innocent lives is horrible
my thoughts^^
ive seen a documentary about chechny last night.
apparently their society was a society of equals, they knew no kings or lords of any kind. they were only obedient to their clans, and the clans were loyal to each other. then in the 1600's russia occupied it on its way to the black sea. ever since then the chechnian restistance has been extremeley dedicated due to the clan system. every offense by the russians only pulled the chechnians closer together which is why military force will never pacify them.
this to share some info.
imo russia shud withdraw from chechny immediateley, they have no right nor reason to be there. of course all the terrorist acts commited by tchechnian terrorists shud not be rewarded but obviously its the only way to pacify the region. and after all the people of tchechnia are not responsible for the acts of few extremist elements.
heck i would not even be surprised if the CIA had had its fingers in this, now that this happens ever last paranoid in the USA will vote for Bush.
apparently their society was a society of equals, they knew no kings or lords of any kind. they were only obedient to their clans, and the clans were loyal to each other. then in the 1600's russia occupied it on its way to the black sea. ever since then the chechnian restistance has been extremeley dedicated due to the clan system. every offense by the russians only pulled the chechnians closer together which is why military force will never pacify them.
this to share some info.
imo russia shud withdraw from chechny immediateley, they have no right nor reason to be there. of course all the terrorist acts commited by tchechnian terrorists shud not be rewarded but obviously its the only way to pacify the region. and after all the people of tchechnia are not responsible for the acts of few extremist elements.
heck i would not even be surprised if the CIA had had its fingers in this, now that this happens ever last paranoid in the USA will vote for Bush.
Sauron said:
If it is an independant country, then you are right.
If it is not, then the russian government are acting within their rights. You can't just make an own country out of your home town, if it worked that way things would be really messy.
So what is it? I don't know weather it is an own country or a russian province
