Is Religion Defensible?

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Originally posted by Jay
I think the problem is not religon itselt, but the extremes.

I dont think any 'normal' muslim would agree the attacks on the world trade centre are justified or the correct action to take. It was an extremist group.

I think it is the same in Northern Ireland. There are a few people on the edge of the situation who cause the trouble where as the majority just want to get on with their normal lives.

While I am not religous in the slightest I wouldnt want to see everybody persecuted for the few that cause problems. Do we stop everyone driving cars simply because some people drive incorrectly/irresponsible nope. Each to their own as long as its not causing pain or suffering to others.
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I agree with your sentiment Jay, but I don't think you quite see what I am saying..

We have a social framework in place, where we promote religion, through our schools, in our media, etc etc.

A great many people in the UK describe themselves as Christian on forms, but will say they are agnostic, don't go to chruch, and don't follow any religious belief, apart from maybe "praying" for six numbers, and "being good to others"

However, this massive percentage of the population continues to call itself "christian", which gives the christian churches a level of influence in parliament, far beyond what their true numbers would support. (church of england in particular has a lot of influence)

What I am getting at is the extremists get listened to, because the silent majority give their approval by saying nothing!

I find nothing more horrific than the thought of an ever increasing number of represenatives from religions in the house of lords, when surveys carried out in the UK suggest that fewer than 40% of people believe in *ANY* god at all, and less than 11% regularly attend any type of church service.

Religious Adherants, who piously follow their faith are outnumbered in the UK by Hardcore Star Trek fans.

They do not deserve or require special representation in our country's parliament.
 
But dont you feel its our own fault for not standing up for what we want. We can hardly criticise others for trying to acheive their goals simply because we dont bother.

Im a none beleiver and im proud to be so. However, one of my parents was a very very strong beleiver and I have seen the good this can do in times of trouble and dispair. I have witnessed the strength they found from reading the bible, although it is not something i would ever do.
 
I dont think any 'normal' muslim would agree the attacks on the world trade centre are justified or the correct action to take
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I remember hundreds of thousands of people celebrating on the streets(cnn coverage in several muslim countries proved that). Even in the netherlands research suggests that especially older muslims approved of the attack.
If this is the typical normal muslim, then i am scared shitless
 
I saw that coverage, and to be honest I am not sure that it is the norm. I think that alot of what we see is propaganda.

Remember during the war with Iraq were were constantly shown how well thing were going and how no civilian targets were hit, but in matter of fact after many years it comes out that things were not as peachy as they were made to be.

At the end of the day we were influenced by what we see and read and much of what we see or read has been manipulated.
 
i agree that a lot of people are afraid of reprisals if they don't do what they have been told.
But i can not believe that they merely do that because of fear.
Young children are brainwashed in muslim schools and sent to trainingcamps. It is not only the fear that makes these people shout it is also a way of life that many people got spoonfed.
In the netherlands the government did a survey among muslim schools (read muslim only schools) 3 of those schools had teachers that publicly supported terrorism and secret video shots showed that these teachers brainwashed these children with anti USA thoughts.

The muslim extremists have grown too big to call them a minority.
We can not neglect the fact that those hi-jackers who flew planes in the WTC were also considered "normal" muslims before they crashed into the WTC.
 
Check the pic. That's a hammas rally in palestine (or lebanon, not sure which) And that's a guyt wiht his own kid dressed up as a suicide bomber, with cute little fake dynamite.

still think religion is cute and fluffy??


Got this sent to me (from a humour website initially)

To ensure we Americans never offend anyone -- especially fanatics intent on
killing us -- airport screeners will not be allowed to racially profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year- old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail and 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips. Let's pause a moment and take the following test:

==========================================

In the 1973 Olympics in Munich, 11 Israeli Athletes were massacred by:

(a) Bill O'Reilly
(b) Elvis;
(c) Ozzie & Harriet;
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

========================================

In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

(a) Norwegians from Oslo;
(b) Ronald Reagan;
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women;
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

========================================

In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:

(a) A pizza delivery boy;
(b) Crazed feminists complaining that being able to throw a grenade beyond
its own burst radius was an unfair and sexist requirement in basic training;
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day;
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

========================================

In 1985, the Italian cruise ship, Achilles Lauro, was hijacked by:

(a) The religious Right;
(b) The Tooth Fairy:
(c) White Anglo-Saxon Protestants;
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

========================================

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

(a) Luca Braze, for not being given a part in "Godfather 2;"
(b) Republicans;
(c) Butch and Sundance who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from the
train mission,
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

==========================================

In Feb. 1993, 6 people were killed, and 1000+ injured when the World Trade
Center in NY was bombed by:

(a) Richard Nixon;
(b) Mickey Mouse;
(c) The NRA;
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

==========================================

In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:

(a) George Bush;
(b) Mr. Rogers;
(c) Hillary, trying to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems;
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

==========================================

In Oct. 2000, 17 innocent soldiers were killed when the USS Cole was
attacked by:

(a) The Pope;
(b) The World Wrestling Federation promoting its next villain: "Mustapha
the Merciless";
(c) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd.
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

==========================================

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and 3,000 innocent Americans
killed by:

(a) Newt Gingrich;
(b) The Florida Supreme Court trying to outdo their attempted hijacking of
the 2000 Presidential election;
(c) Ozzy Osbourne;
(d) Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

==========================================

Hmmm. nope, no patterns anywhere.
 

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Originally posted by Jay
At the end of the day we were influenced by what we see and read and much of what we see or read has been manipulated.
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Hmmmm. well, I have it on good authority from people I trust that there's a bloody big hole in the ground in new york, where roughly four thousand people died.

Conspiracy theory is good and well, but in it's place please. You can only manipulate the facts so far.
 
That seems to be a very glib answer to a valid statement i made.

I cannot say how worldwide muslims feel. But I have a friend who is a muslim living in pakistan and she was outraged to see some of the footage that was used here of people celebrating in the streets as she said this wasnt the norm.

However, you are entitled to your own opinion. I am of the opinion that the news is manipulated before it gets to us and in certain respects we are fed information to lead us to think in a direction. Propaganda is used world wide. It is my personal view that it was used in this case.

This doesnt mean that I hold any weight with what happened, it was a horrific event. However I also feel that the people who carried out this crime were extremists and it is an insult to compare them to the majority of muslims.

**edit** sorry i only saw your last post

However, the first post you made seems to confirm what i say. The people who carried out these crimes are extremists, not just your bog standard muslims.

I dont think religon is 'fluffy' but to some people it is a great form of support and encouragement, i am not willing to sit here and decry everyone who beleives in something simply because there are some fruits out there who commit horiffic acts in the name of religon.
 
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i will also point out that those people are fanatical. you'll never get rid of fanatics.

and they don't hate the west simply because they're predominately islamic and the west is predominately christian
 
what was kinda my point
there is no "normal" muslim
there is no "normal" christian
what we have is group of extremists which have grown extremely large
 
Why do you say large?

How many muslims are there in a year and how many are multi killing fanatics?

Its a very small percentage.

**Edit**
source www.islamicpopulation.com

world_general.html


this states that there are approximately 1410.83 million muslims in the world. How many of those millions do you feel would be terrorists?
 
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Jay is spot on about the amount of propoganda Wints.
I have been reading pages for the last hour and there is so much bullshit written by pro and anti - islam supporters.

The whole thing is so skewed it is hard to know who or what to believe. I have a lengthy reply about religion in general, but I shall wait until the Islam debate has died a little. Far too easy to get caught up and het-up about it.
 
i think everyone has the right too support and worship in any religion they like and that this should'nt cause any problems by what religion they are

its like those people blew up the world trade towers the taliban but does'nt mean other in the same religion think the same nor people in the same country

in britain and in christianity we have some crazy people does'nt mean were all mental and want to do bad things.. also just because someone has done something bad does'nt give others the right to stop them believing in there religion

like in prisons u have christians but because they have done wrong things in the community they are'nt seen as pure christians


anyway dont really know what im talking about so thats it
 
Originally posted by Jay
this states that there are approximately 1410.83 million muslims in the world. How many of those millions do you feel would be terrorists?
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I think you are being very naive about the breadth of support for terrorist actions. A terrorist group is not just about the gang of freaks who actually do the killing. it's about the mass of the population who sit back and say "well done" when innocents are murdered.

Right here in the UK, we had groups of islamic youth chanting "allahu ahkbar" outside the glasgow central mosque when news broke of the september 11th attacks.

"god is great"? wtf? 4000 innocents just died?

The older, and wiser, imam appeard and shut them the fuck up.

And that's the problem right there.

Religion is a benchmark of intelligence and education.

Religion thrives in areas of poor education, as people who understand the phyical world around them are less likely to believe the fairy tale.

Any population has idiots. Every workplace has stories about the guy so thick-as-shit that he falls for being sent for "a long stand", "tartan paint", "a right handed screwdriver" etc etc..

In most cases, the terminally stupid are simply the butt of jokes.

However, where you have chronic poverty, and an almost complete lack of even primary education, you have some of the most dangerous idiots in the world. Because there aren't friends and family around them who can explain how things really are, they will just accept blindly the word of whatever loon dcides to fill their heads with ideas.

And before you know it, the young thick-as-shit rock farmer is standing on a bus wth his dick wrapped in Cemtex.
 
I can agree and disagree with the points you have raised. I dont think it is easy enough to say all religon is bad.

I dont think that people having something to beleive in in itself is a bad thing. It can provide people with alot of strength at time in their life when they cant/wont approach others for it.

Yes there are situations where religon is bad and is used to manipulate, but this isnt enough for me to say that religon is completely indefensible.
 
I dont think that people having something to beleive in in itself is a bad thing
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except for one thing.. It's not true!!

What's the point in having "something to believe in" if, fundamentally, you are kidding yourself?

What's the point of a crutch to support you in your time of need, when it isn't actually there?

God is a fairy tale, a way for our ancestors to explain the things they didn't understand, and nothing more.

We do not understand everything, but we understand enough to see that all things can be explained given time.

We no longer drill holes in each other's heads, to let the "spirits" out. Lets leave the rest of this hookie BS behind too.

Ian.
 
But I like to beleive in Father Christmas, it makes me feel nice and warm inside. Beleiving in god to some people is the same. If they need a crutch let them have it. I wont take away from anyone something that means so much to them.

I dont think that its a bad thing to admit that you need support though life. People get this support in different ways, some people take drugs, some people drink, some people beleive in god.
 
yeah, but see what happens on 25th december if you sit back and wait for father christmas to do the deed for you.

I was a twisted kid. I thought Father Christmas was some sort of bastard debt collector, who forced your parents to go buy christmas presents for you, then took all the stinking credit himself.

Cue Ian, aged five, saying "I hate Santa Claus"
My Mum: "why on earth do you hate Santa Claus???"
Ian: "I wanted a bike"
My Mum: "you said you wanted this game!"
Ian: "yes, but I told Santa at the school that I wanted a bike"

err...... ;)

As for drugs and drink? heh, good old Alcohol. doesn't say you can't masturbate, or eat pork, does't ask you to kill someone's kids, won't send you to a fiery hell, and only gives you a hangover.

:beer:

sounds like a great god to me :)
 
i have to agree with paa and jay on this.
everybody should have the right to believe what they want to believe. As long as they don't push it down somebodies throat i don't care.
as for my remark about muslim extremists.
It still stands, and only a small percentage of them actually do suicide bombs. But the silent majority is funding this and approving it.
People who have to much to lose or are just plain afraid fund operations.
 
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