Is Religion Defensible?

[Wintermute]

Premise:

Northern Ireland ripped itself apart because even a single religion can't agree on which version is right.

September 11th happened because religion gave uneducated fools a cause to die for.

Catholic priests have sexually abused countless thousands of children across the world, yet been protected from justice by religion.

And on and on it goes.

Question:

Is religion of any kind actually defensible? There is a trend to blame "organised" religion, however, I would suggest that it is religion of any kind which is at fault.

If people who really have no significant belief in god, were to say so, rather than calling themselves "christian" (for instance) would this remove the perceived influence of the extremists?

Discuss!

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by Wintermute

Is religion of any kind actually defensible?

imo No. At its worst is used by governments to suppress whole populations and at its least it teaches lies...pathetic simple lies.

I see religion as some kind of really sick joke. It seems to do the exact opposite of what its `supposed' to. Maybe it is doing what its supposed to & we just didnt read the instructions properly.

I remember reading something years ago that claimed that more ppl had died `in the name of religion' than of all other circumstances put together ever. Dunno if its true but i wouldnt be surprised.

I agree with George Carlin who says we should just worship the Sun. U can actually see the Sun, it keeps us alive and it never tells u ur a bad person...but dont pray to it ffs

 

[TexasTom]

Oh god, oh no i didnt mean that umm i meant oh my! I have to agree with Winter on something! I was an atheist in a Roman Catholic school and for a religion that preaches tolerance they certainly didnt show any lol. Of the few of us that were none RC it was a case of victimisation. Bit rich since the RE teacher and French teacher were having it away while married(not to each other )!

The NI issue is mostly religious, or should we say, was. The problem now is the IRA isnt a terrorist organsiation as such, more of a crime syndicate. With interests ranging from racketeering to drug running.

Religion,however tame forces sections of the community that dont agree, apart. And thats bad.
BAN IT! Its nearly as bad as smoking and much less fun than fox hunting!

 

[Twonko]

The main problem with religion is that the possibility (however small) IS that God exists. Even in the wee small hours, none of us can deny that possibility.

Which leads on to more questions. Such as...


Why do children suffer?

Why do wars happen?

And so on.

IMO if God exists he is one arrogant self-centred bastard.


Discuss.

 

[Plonko]

Religion as a reason for conflicts ffs. Come on get real people, the conflict would happen anyway. Look at Northern Ireland for example it's a territorial thing. Who get's control of Northern Ireland the British or the Irish. Fuck all to do with religion.

However religion is an extremely handy excuse to use when you want to explain it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is religion isn't the cause of much of the shite going on in the world, it's just used as a lame excuse.

 

[jwer_NL]

people need a solid ground to stand on, someone they can rely on and being part of a community helps them on their way in life..

religion can bring people together, as they share the same beliefs and have the same hopes in life, it get's people through hard times because they feel they are here for a reason, and if something bad happens it happened for a reason...

i've found that most atheists are usually people that are firm on their feet, know the world is a harsh place and they can cope with it themselves...many people don't, they need something to hold on to in their lives, and religion gives them exactly that...

for many people, a life without religion would be meaningless and empty, and "god knows" what would happen if they hadn't that grip to hold on to...

for many things religion is not the cause of things happening, osama doesn't hate america because he's a muslim, he hates them for the other things he thinks they did.. he uses religion as an excuse to involve others and makes them believe that what happens is an act of god...

for many people it's the foundation they live on, don't take that away from them

 

[Rich]

if i had 1 wish it would be for ther words Religion and Race to have never exicted.

there the root of all evil.

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by jwer_NL

for many people it's the foundation they live on, don't take that away from them

Yes do take it away from them. Certain ppl's insecurities are no excuse for spreading lies. There can be no `half way house' imo.

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by jwer_NL
for many things religion is not the cause of things happening, osama doesn't hate america because he's a muslim, he hates them for the other things he thinks they did.. he uses religion as an excuse to involve others and makes them believe that what happens is an act of god...

Which is kinda my point. people with ulterior motives (like control of territory in ulster, or political action against america) use reiligion, seomthing they would not be able to do if "the common man" was to stop adhering half-heartedly to it!

Ian.

 

[jwer_NL]

...no excuse for spreading lies....

? people's beliefs does not make them liars, you know for sure there's no god? i don't nor will anyone ever i think...

religion never did harm anyone, people that do things that doesn't belong to any religion and say they did so in it's name do.. they are the liars, because "every' world religion specifically states the value of human lives, the need to help others in need and the respect we should have for each other...

the fact you and wintermute can live without it doesn't mean others can

 

[LoneRanger]

i will point out many of the psycho paths and dictators had psychiatrists as their right hand men.. the idiot in the 30's/40's whose name i prefer not to speak, bin laden, hussein.

although yes, religion has lead to many conflicts, it would be impossible to completely take it out of history. mind you, for a while there (couple thousand years), people actually believed there was a god or gods and practiced their religion.

who's to say what exists and what does not. i'm not religious in the least bit- i consider myself atheist really, but you still can't deny the fact that there could be something bigger than you. theres no way to disprove the existence of a god or gods.

and a world without conflict does not exist. its really an impossibility. even assuming there wasn't religion.. which wouldn't be possible.. you'd still have two people with differences that will still find a difference to bicker over.

 

[ProPain]

religion is food for the masses
Whenever people are starving of hunger or war
they have only one thing to fall back to, religion
Governments use it to surpress the masses and have done this for hundreds of years.
Almost every war in human history started over religion or territory
I can't see how religion adds something to human society
(of course this is all an opinion)

 

[jwer_NL]

almost every war was shuved towards religion but it was all greed, possesion and territory

the fact people just don't follow their religion is what makes this world a worse place..

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by LoneRanger
theres no way to disprove the existence of a god or gods.

What there is, however, is a way to disprove that any and every phenomenon attributed to "god" is in fact the simple laws of physics in action.

We may not be able to disprove the existance of a god, however we can prove the complete and total irrelevance and impotence of a god.

and at the end of the day, isn't that the same thing?

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by jwer_NL
the fact people just don't follow their religion is what makes this world a worse place..

I don't think so...

We have a habit to portray religions as cute and cuddly, and basically nice, all about "love your neighbour" and stuff, when in fact, some of the worst atrocities are caused by people following their religion to the letter

"you shall not allow a witch to live" bad luck for all the wiccans then, eh?

"if a man lays with another man, as with a woman, he should be put to death" errr.. gay rights?

Religion is the dark nasty backdrop to our history, and one I don't think we need any more.

 

[LoneRanger]

but you simply can't disprove it to everyone Ian. and i think most people who do believe in god, would most likely believe that he can break those silly little laws of physics

 

[Hugh(_I_)Jarse]

Originally posted by Wintermute

Religion is the dark nasty backdrop to our history, and one I don't think we need any more.

Remove religion and it will be filled by something else fired by idealists/fundamentalists:
Politics, sectarianism, money/greed, football, (fashion ), UT etc.

Man has an innate desire to follow and belong, this will never change. Blaming religion is wrong. Yes awful atrocities have been done in the 'name' of religion, as they have been in the name of politics and greed.

Faith/spirituality in its purest sense can be a beautiful thing. Don’t put some one down for having these, save your anger for those that hide behind religion to cover their evil ways, but not all who have any form of religion. The true enemy of our time is not religion but the multi-national conglomerates,.

 

[Plonko]

Well I think the bottom line is that it's a waste of time talking about romoving religion cos too many people belive in it. If you want to remove it then you have to convince them all they have got it wrong. It's never gonna happen.

It's here to stay, live with it.

 

[Jay]

I think the problem is not religon itselt, but the extremes.

I dont think any 'normal' muslim would agree the attacks on the world trade centre are justified or the correct action to take. It was an extremist group.

I think it is the same in Northern Ireland. There are a few people on the edge of the situation who cause the trouble where as the majority just want to get on with their normal lives.

While I am not religous in the slightest I wouldnt want to see everybody persecuted for the few that cause problems. Do we stop everyone driving cars simply because some people drive incorrectly/irresponsible nope. Each to their own as long as its not causing pain or suffering to others.

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Plonko
Well I think the bottom line is that it's a waste of time talking about romoving religion cos too many people belive in it. If you want to remove it then you have to convince them all they have got it wrong. It's never gonna happen.

It's here to stay, live with it.

What you can't do, and probably should not even try to do, is get in the way of people's personal faith.

What you can (and IMO should) do is remove religion from the state completely.

No church ceremony/blessing for royal weddings,
remove the religious oaths in courtrooms,
no prayers allowed before parliament sessions (although MPs remain free to arrange a room to do so outwith the parliament buildings)
no taxation powers for the Church of England,
no representation of religious groups in the house of lords,
non religious assemblies *only* in schools
Mandated "wide scope" religious education, where the simple facts of each religion's beliefs are presented.
religiously segregated schools banned.

etc etc etc.

These things don't harm th right of an individual to practice their faith, but they prevent the extreme elements of that faith from exerting an undue influence on society.