Gay Marriage

[Mughi]

I may be a bit biased on this matter because I am against homosexuals in general, but the idea of two alikely gendered persons 'marrying' is absurd. I agree with the first reply here; it changes its meaning largely.

They can live together, spend their lives together, get a house and share a bed and have "sex", but marrying and raising children should be exclusive to normal couples.

Not that I see raising children and marrying as connected topics - they are two completely different things IMO, for Im against the christian belief of "Sex after marriage" and the like - but the discussion about child adoption would arise directly after granting homos the right to marry. The simple fact it is an adoption states its wrong by means of nature. I think nature and way it arranged things is a very high and important scale to meassure things with.

Preventing homosexual couples from marrying and raising children should therefore be mandatory to show them they are not normal, at least by nature's means (some may think they are).

Okay.... this isnt quite correct sobo. Child birth is not the be all and end all of nature you know. Otherwise you would have to insist that infertile couples who require IVF treatments and adoption for anyone other than people who are already parents is just as abnormal and therefore they should be made to be aware that they are abnormal regularly.

Dont get me wrong here - the point of every species is to continue through offspring and therefore the majority must be prepared to breed to do so - humans as much as any other species. But the proportion of homosexuals in any species is tiny in comparison to the number of heterosexuals so there isnt exactly any problem there.

There is homosexuality in other species - the most known one being "lesbian" seagulls, they even lay eggs and take turns caring for it. Given that it does happen in nature, why make such a big deal out of it.

 

[-CrackKing-]

a bit biased? complete homophobe might be a better description - your comments are dripping with it. This is a truly horrible bundle of prejudices, and also a fairly hefty pile of wrong information.

let's see...

"normal" couples, huh? so what about couples from different ethnic backgrounds? couples with a large age difference? couples where one has red hair and the other brown? one jew and one islamic?

for me (and thankfully, for a great many people) a "normal" couple is one where the couple loves each other and wants to build a future together. disliking a couple because they are gay is a dark mirror on your own person, not any reflection on them.

You say that nature and the way it arranged things is a high and important scale to measure things with. I don't agree. If we followed this thinking, all medicine is wrong, as nature intended the weak and sick to die. I (along with anyone who has ever required surgery) would be dead, and that would be a good thing, because it's "natural".

That being said, let's assume you are right for a moment -

Dolphins routinely rape and kill females who will not allow them to mate. This is natural. does this mean that rape is okay?

Chimpanzees form raiding gangs which will seek out individuals from other groups, drag them back to their own territory, kill them and eat them. This is natural. Does this mean that abduction, murder and cannibalism are okay?

If you want to use nature as a guide, perhaps you should consider that homosexuality has been observed in the wild in almost every species we have studied, from wolves where the sub-alpha males will mate with each other, to chimpanzees where both male-male and female-female interactions have been studied, even to ducks.

For that matter, Homosexual, Necrophiliac Rape has been observed and recorded in "nature". http://www.nmr.nl/deins815.htm

How about we prevent Germans from marrying and having children, to show them that they are not normal? When it comes right down to it, your comment is no less ridiculous.

Sorry sobo, you're completely misinformed.

 

[sobo]

"normal" couples, huh? so what about couples from different ethnic backgrounds? couples with a large age difference? couples where one has red hair and the other brown? one jew and one islamic?

for me (and thankfully, for a great many people) a "normal" couple is one where the couple loves each other and wants to build a future together.

For me a normal couple is one which contains of a male and a female, may it be a black, 16 yo (law aspects aside), islamic midget woman with red hair and a 2m tall yellow Hindu from china with maybe no hair at all, it doesnt matter. They can get children and their love to each other makes them a proper couple. Now for homosexuals, they may love eachother in the same way but they still fail the obvious natural intention of coupling IMO. Therefore I think of this sort of a couple as "unnormal". For me its "common sense" to think of a man and a woman when hearing the word "couple".

disliking a couple because they are gay is a dark mirror on your own person, not any reflection on them.

I dont dislike them because they are gay but because they offend me in a way. Others may be offended by gore, pornography, or verbal abuse. Now thinking "HTF can somebody be offended by gore" doesnt give me the right to mark them a bad/dark person. The word "offend" might be a bit bold here but i think its proper. I prefer to look away and I dont actually want to get involved. And I wouldn't practise that myself. Now this probably goes for other things that people are "offended" by too.

You say that nature and the way it arranged things is a high and important scale to measure things with. I don't agree. If we followed this thinking, all medicine is wrong, as nature intended the weak and sick to die. I (along with anyone who has ever required surgery) would be dead, and that would be a good thing, because it's "natural".

The debate about medicine being wrong or right is fairly old. Ive never for a second thought of medicine to be wrong. Im a naturalist but Im also a scientist as everybody is.

Nature has of course good and bad sides. Adapting the good and avoiding the bad ones because we think of them as unappropriate to a civilized sociaty (such as Social Darwinism, cannibalism, murder,..) should be self explanatory. However, among people the judging about good and bad differs to some extent. There have been Social Darwinists and the past century ruling countries (thankfully, that is the past now) and on the other hand there are people everywhere who think of medicine of completely wrong. Picking a healthy compromise between science and nature. Different people with different education, social background, surroundings, experiences happen to draw the line at another point.

I also think YOU are now prejudiced by applying the rule of nature to ANY possible situation that noone with a bit of common sense left could agree to happen, like rape, murder and the like.

If you want to use nature as a guide, perhaps you should consider that homosexuality has been observed in the wild in almost every species we have studied, from wolves where the sub-alpha males will mate with each other, to chimpanzees where both male-male and female-female interactions have been studied, even to ducks.

For that matter, Homosexual, Necrophiliac Rape has been observed and recorded in "nature". http://www.nmr.nl/deins815.htm

I didnt know about that but rather would I call those particular animals unnormal in terms of coupling. As I explained at the top of this post I refer to a couple when speaking of a man and a woman. And that goes "([...], for a great many people)"

How about we prevent Germans from marrying and having children, to show them that they are not normal? When it comes right down to it, your comment is no less ridiculous.

I absolutely dont think I made a ridiculous point by thinking a homosexual couple is not a normal couple. But that is probably an opinion, suum cuique.

 

[Useless]

But Sobo, you admit you're prejudiced against homosexuals. So your opinion canrries a lot less weight now that you say you're biased. If someone said to me "I don't like black people" and I asked why and they said "I just don't", I'd think his opinion was pretty worthless.
Your opinion of homosexuals isn't fair or open-minded or balanced - in fact it's just the opposite. So that should be enough to tell anyone that such an opinion isn't much worth paying attention to.
No personal offence meant btw but I'm just making a point

 

[Ice]

i hate gays, so what? *edit: dislike fits better, i don't care enough to really hate them, but they are annoying.

i am biased aswell, so what?

i accept them, but they have to accept that i dislike them.

for any other thing i would understand if people call me homophobic or something similiar, but on this matter i take the freedom to dislike them, just because i do.

(yes, my opinion is worthless for you, only pointing it out)

 

[Wintermute]

For me a normal couple is one which contains of a male and a female, may it be a black, 16 yo (law aspects aside), islamic midget woman with red hair and a 2m tall yellow Hindu from china with maybe no hair at all, it doesnt matter.

but it does matter that they are gay? don't you see how small minded that is?

They can get children and their love to each other makes them a proper couple. Now for homosexuals, they may love eachother in the same way but they still fail the obvious natural intention of coupling IMO.

Mughi and I are unable to have children.

By your sick little definition, that means that we are not a proper couple? You want to explain to me why our marriage of ten years isn't "normal"? Are you so narrow minded to think that breeding fucked up brats to replace yourself is the definition of a couple?

That sort of attitude makes me sick.

For me its "common sense" to think of a man and a woman when hearing the word "couple"

no, Sobo, it's not "common sense". It's prejudice and homophobia. the simple little bigotries of a closed and narrow mind.

I dont dislike them because they are gay but because they offend me in a way.

"they" offend you? do you even understand that you are labelling millions of different people with all sorts of opnions, beliefs, lives, experiences, hopes and dreams into a convenient little group for you to hate?

I absolutely dont think I made a ridiculous point by thinking a homosexual couple is not a normal couple. But that is probably an opinion, suum cuique.

"each to his own"? no thanks. Homophobia (just like racism) should be challenged for the unacceptable behaviour that it is. Thankfully, narrow minded attitudes like yours are reducing in society.

 

[Wintermute]

i hate gays, so what?

Nice to see you edited your post.

still, those of us who read it now know just what sort of a person you are. welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Ice]

eh. could call you narrowminded aswell, for not accepting his opinion. if everyone would just accept anyone else's opinion (not saying supporting it), there would be less problems.

you made your point clear before already, but in MY modern society there is no place for gay marriages.

it's all about opinions and you should learn to accepts other's opinions.

 

[Mughi]

I had the same arguements used against me with someone over why "these damn darkies" are actually, believe it or not, people too. Apparently I should just accept their opinion and they would happily disregard mine. I cannot accept that some people still consider others as lesser, or even go as far as to say they hate a group of people simply because of a trait they are born with wether that is height, hair colour, skin colour or sexuality for no other reason than they are short, ginger, black or gay. I still dont understand why you "hate gays" Ice? I really can see no reason at all for it.

 

[Useless]

i accept them, but they have to accept that i dislike them.

OK, but should your opinion be taken into account when it comes to deciding whether or not they should be allowed to marry? No. And this is because that decision shouldn't be based on how much other people hate gays or whether they make people uncomfortable.

I'm uncomfortable around gay men - I freely admit that - but I still think they should be allowed to marry.

EDIT: Just thought of something - if you misunderstood (or chose to miunderstand) what I was saying before, I didn't mean your opinion it worthless just because it happens to be the opposite of mine. I meant your opinion is worthless when it comes to this discussion, because it's bigotry. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, even ones like yours.

 

[Ice]

I still dont understand why you "hate gays" Ice? I really can see no reason at all for it.

i hate gays, so what? *edit: dislike fits better, i don't care enough to really hate them, but they are annoying.

OK, but should your opinion be taken into account when it comes to deciding whether or not they should be allowed to marry? No.

Yes, find the reason in my first post right on page one.
When I once marry, and their gay status is called marriage aswell, it will affect me, at least that's my opinion (opinion about marriage).
My opinion (about personally disliking them), should not be taken into account for any descision, but I usually keep it for myself anyway, because as long as it doesn't affect me, I don't make a big deal out of it.

I didn't mean your opinion it worthless just because it happens to be the opposite of mine. I meant your opinion is worthless when it comes to this discussion, because it's bigotry.

i understand that

 

[Mughi]

Yes, find the reason in my first post right on page one. When I once marry, and their gay status is called marriage aswell, it will affect me.

And we are back to - if the word used is "Civil Partnership" but they get the same legal status, does that remove your dislike of what I originally termed "gay marriage"

 

[Useless]

Allowing gay marriages changes the whole definition of the word "marriage", in my opinion. Marriage should be a heterosexual thing.

You mean this post? I don't see any reason why this statement of yours should have any bearing on the topic. Are you saying that gay marriages shouldn't be allowed because the way you define the word 'marriage' might consequently have to change?

 

[Ice]

no, i am saying that there should be another word for it.

And we are back to - if the word used is "Civil Partnership" but they get the same legal status, does that remove your dislike of what I originally termed "gay marriage"

it doesn't remove my dislike, but i would accept it (even though i dislike them).

 

[Mughi]

no, i am saying that there should be another word for it.

and there is - Civil Partnership - so you should have no problem then.

 

[Ice]

is that the official term?

 

[Mughi]

It is the official term in the UK

 

[Ðeadßoy]

one being "lesbian" seagulls

 

[Ice]

civil partnership is perfectly fine and i accept the civil marriage process. still dislike them, but at least it doesn't contradict with what i understand as marriage.

everything should be cleared up then.

 

[sobo]

Mughi and I are unable to have children.

well you are man and woman though. IMO you are a proper couple. You can obviously by birth or by an accident not have children. so it is a physical issue, that you obviously couldnt influence yourself.

no, Sobo, it's not "common sense". It's prejudice and homophobia. the simple little bigotries of a closed and narrow mind.

Call it whatever you please, I would almost bet on that one to be a true fact.

"they" offend you? do you even understand that you are labelling millions of different people with all sorts of opnions, beliefs, lives, experiences, hopes and dreams into a convenient little group for you to hate?

I dont put anyone there that Ive not personnaly met, my opinions are based on my personal experiences. Maybe there homosexuals that dont offend me, Ive not met all yet.


On a separate note, the quote in your signature isnt exactly wide minded. It classes religious people as unintelligent (or 'stupid').