Capital Punishment Review?

[Ezby]

Originally posted by Martz


This is indeed one of the best threads for a long time.

I totally agree, some very interesting and thought provoking point have been raised here. I thought I had fairly defined views on the subject until I read the many replies here!

I have 2 "schools of thought" on the matter

Firstly Phear's point, an eye for an eye. I do agree with this to a certain extent. Surely if a person murders another, then all you are doing is the same? Would that not make us on the sme level and no morally better than the murderer in the 1st intance? Two wrongs don't make a right etc etc.

On the other hand.. If one chooses to take the life of another, do we not sacrifice all rights as a human being? Especially in the case of much people as Myra Hindley, Fredrick & Rosemary West, who systematically, tortured, sexually abused, and videotaped the procedings for their own twisted gratificated, then finally murdered dozens of young children. Surely such depraved acts justify more of a sentence than life imprisonment? Why should these "people" be allowed to carry on with their lives, and be kept in prison with our own tax money?

However in the middle of both these points is an issue that has been already raised on the imperfections of our justice system. We all know of many cases of people serving decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. And as technology is constantly improving, how many times can we be 110% sure someone is guilty.....

I'll stand down off my soapbaox now But thanks to everyone whos put in their 2 cents worth in this thread, its actually been a great insight to me reading it.

 

[RaMpaGe]

Prison simply provides a place for scum to brood, and learn from others like them how better to avoid being caught next time. To say nothing of the annual average cost to the taxpayer of £30,000 to keep one jailbird in the pokey for a year. (Which is more than about 70% of people earn per year.)

Why should these "people" be allowed to carry on with their lives, and be kept in prison with our own tax money?

The point saying that prisons cost to much money lets just kill all the prisoners so we dont need prisons is bollox!

On the other hand.. If one chooses to take the life of another, do we not sacrifice all rights as a human being? Especially in the case of much people as Myra Hindley, Fredrick & Rosemary West, who systematically, tortured, sexually abused, and videotaped the procedings for their own twisted gratificated, then finally murdered dozens of young children. Surely such depraved acts justify more of a sentence than life imprisonment? Why should these "people" be allowed to carry on with their lives, and be kept in prison with our own tax money?

What's worse then life imprisonment
They will have a lifetime of thinking wtf they did crazy bastards!
Just dont let them get a TV or let them write letters, I dont think people like that deserve such a privilege.
And learn from those sick fucks so next time we can prevent it

 

[Ezby]

Originally posted by RaMpaGe
They will have a lifetime of thinking wtf they did crazy bastards!

That wil only consume if they have a conscience... I don't think people like Hindley and the West's have such a thing...

 

[Ajax]

ramp i sorta argee with you, prison`s dont always work having spent a month at her mag`s pleasure for non payment of poll tax i know. The prison i went to was almost a good laugh, was allowed stereos had shop for goods 3 times a week and had more choice and easyer surply of drugs than normal, must admit that it was a private prison so might not be like most

 

[TexasTom]

Well Technoloy can be wrong or abused. Birmingham 6 had alledgedly had been handling explosives. Infact it was a chemical off a pack of cards they had been playing with! Technology is only any good if you can be sure it isnt being misused or misinterpretated. There is too big a reliance on circumstanstial evidence now a days.

 

[Spirit]

Time for a reply me thinks

To answer Phear’s question about the man with the bomb - of course you shoot him. This decision was taken by him not you. In constructing a weapon of mass destruction and taking it to a crowded public place he has already made the decision to sacrifice his own life, be it by detonating the bomb or being shot trying to do so.

To answer Wintermute's question about why is it worse to kill a child than an old granny - it's not, to kill an oap is just as bad. However children and oaps are defenseless and weak, it is much worse to pray on a victim who cannot fight back that on someone of an equal stature to you. Also, a child has yet to experience much of life - at least an adult has had a chance to experience what life has to offer and gain all the pleasures to be had. Why do you think they don't send kids to war? A 14 year old boy can fire a gun pretty accurately, yeah their judgement may not be as sharp as a man's yet, but they would still help the war effort. They don't send kids to war as it is very wrong to end a life before it has truly began.

And to answer the original question, yes I think that in very very rare cases the death penalty should be an option. I cannot believe it was said earlier here that someone would prefer to see 100 murderers go free than one innocent man killed - so you have 100 murderers lose in society, lets say they all continue doing what they enjoy and each kill 1 person. So now you have 100 innocent ppl dead instead of 1. Is that really what you would choose?

I accept that humans are in control of the evidence and therefore even though forensic science can be 100% conclusive, mistakes can still be made, however someone answer me this: A real life Hannibal Lector has just been caught, there is no doubt of his guilt, people have seen him killing other ppl, he has admitted it, there's DNA evidence etc etc. Lets say it’s even caught on video tape. The list goes on, it is 110% proven in every respect that he is guilty. What is the point of putting this man in prison for life, costing the tax payers huge amounts of money and wasting space in the prison for other criminals who have a chance of reforming, when this man clearly enjoys what he does and will never change? Then you have 2 options, both of which are crap: releasing him into society in the hope that he is reformed or leaving in prison till he dies which is a waste of everyone’s time as you are not even trying to reform him.

Imho when someone commits a crime of this stature they are sacrificing all rights as a human being including the right to co-exist in a society. Personally I would rather see 100 guilty child murderers and one innocent man given the death penalty than 100 child murderers released back into society. Yes it's tragic for the innocent man, however think how tragic it would be for the next 100 child victims that are killed if the all murderers all go free. I would happily give my own life - be that innocent man who is put to death - without a seconds hesitation if it meant this world could be freed of 100 child murderers…

 

[Necroscope]

and what would u say if u were the innocent one, waiting for ur day of death knowing u didnt do it? u sure u would have the same opinion as u have now?


edit: didnt read ur last sentence correct where u anserwed it already

 

[TexasTom]

Originally posted by Thuringwethil
Some more food for thought:

The point of that rant is this: Legal policy is now decided exclusively by the executive. This means they will react in a knee-jerk fashion to pass ill-thought out laws which are more designed to apease their supporters, and ensure continued support at the ballot box at the next election, than they are to solve serious problems. There is no longer and prior process of consideration of the best approach.

Hungerford, a man goes and shoots people with an illegally held AK47 (never been legal in UK). Police markmen say they arent willing to enter the town because he has an AK47 and they only MP5's! So they changed the laws on shotguns, hmmm logical huh!
Dunblane and Handguns? Certainly havent seen any reduction in Gun crime in Birmingham! Its increasing by over 15% a year.
Foxhunting, banned because people like ickle furry foxes. Can we see a pattern of picking on the minority emerging?

 

[Spirit]

Originally posted by Necroscope
and what would u say if u were the innocent one, waiting for ur day of death knowing u didnt do it? u sure u would have the same opinion as u have now?

Of course I wouldn't be happy about it, I would do everything in my power to prove my innocence. However yes I would still have the same opinion. I would still believe that ppl who are 110% guilty of such horrendous crimes should not be allowed the pleasure of life. As I stated though, this should be proven beyond any possible shadow of a doubt.

Even if someone is proven guilty but without any DNA or videotape evidence then they should be given imprisonment instead of death. I think the odds of an innocent man being given the death sentence when there is DNA / video tape evdeince are actually more like a million to one rather than a hundred to one. If someone is caught on video raping and killing young children and smiling whilst they do it then imho they have sacrificed the right to life in a world with other ppl.

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by RaMpaGe
The point saying that prisons cost to much money lets just kill all the prisoners so we dont need prisons is bollox!

I don't think anyone seriously means hang everyone currently in prison ramp. There are plenty of people in prison for minor crimes.

I think the point was made that in the case or murderers and child molesters who are never going to reform, then those kinds of criminals should be subject to the death penalty.

No-one is seriously proposing the death penalty instead of prison for all crimes. (Although it would sure see the re-offending rate drop to 0% )

TBH, just locking people up is no good. Too many prisons are far too comfortable for criminals. If I have to slave away at my job to put food on my table, why should some bugger get everything for free from my tax money because they are in prison?

My sense to crime and punishment is "eye for an eye" to a certain extent. E.g. If someone sprays graffiti all over a public building, they should be handed a scrubbing brush and bucket of water to scrub it right back off again, that kind of thing. There are plenty of tasks prisoners could be usefully performing instead of simply languishing in prison at taxpayer's expense.


@Spirit - yes, it is better that 100 guilty murderers go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted and executed. You can't bring the dead back. Once you are dead, you are dead. End of story. That is fact. The guilty murderer might not kill again. Or he might. The point is, you can at least try to prevent him re-offending.

 

[RaMpaGe]

I dont wanne have 100 murderers lose in society and NOT wanne see spirit die as the 1 innocent guy THAT SHOULD BE THE OPTION!


and Ajax you been in prison you lowlife scumbastard
didnt you have to work for the radio and TV ?
Well here in the Netherlands they gotta work and when they did a good job they can RENT a TV or Radio!

and like I said that should be for the murders !

 

[RaMpaGe]

TBH, just locking people up is no good. Too many prisons are far too comfortable for criminals. If I have to slave away at my job to put food on my table, why should some bugger get everything for free from my tax money because they are in prison?

bit simpel minded but ok

Thur 1 advice for you then do a crime and go to prison!
You pay tax to improve your country and help the people that cant help themself, so the guys in prison are just helpless fuckers

My sense to crime and punishment is "eye for an eye" to a certain extent. E.g. If someone sprays graffiti all over a public building, they should be handed a scrubbing brush and bucket of water to scrub it right back off again, that kind of thing. There are plenty of tasks prisoners could be usefully performing instead of simply languishing in prison at taxpayer's expense.

I agree!

 

[Ajax]

ramp if you notice i went inside for polltax 1000`s upon 1000`s didnt pay their poll tax cos they thought it was an unfair system (which it was and is why we no longer have it) I was just one of the unlucky ones made an example of

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by TexasTom


Hungerford, a man goes and shoots people with an illegally held AK47 (never been legal in UK). Police markmen say they arent willing to enter the town because he has an AK47 and they only MP5's! So they changed the laws on shotguns, hmmm logical huh!
Dunblane and Handguns? Certainly havent seen any reduction in Gun crime in Birmingham! Its increasing by over 15% a year.
Foxhunting, banned because people like ickle furry foxes. Can we see a pattern of picking on the minority emerging?

Of course. Its always easier to pick on soft targets. That is why our police force have a 100% success rate at catching and fining motorists driving 3mph over the speed limit, but a 0% success rate at getting rid of armed drug dealers in Manchester council estates.

Re: the gun situation: We have the most restrictive gun laws in Europe, and the highest incidence of gun crime relative to that. Weird, huh?

I can see the point in banning pistols and automatic weapons. These are expressly designed for killing people, and are rarely used for anything else.

Shotguns and rifles on the other hand are generally used by sportsmen in marksmanship competitions at clubs and sporting events, or farmers shooting vermin on their land.

I can see the point in allowing a registered member of a gun club having a single shot rifle for sporting purposes. If that same man asked for a license for a belt fed M60 or an M16 with underslung grenade launcher, then the answer would have to be no!

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by Martz
Everyone please read and understand the P&S FORUM RULES before replying to this thread again.

This is indeed one of the best threads for a long time.

Many thanx Martz for creating the P & S forum

 

[Spirit]

Originally posted by Thuringwethil
@Spirit - yes, it is better that 100 guilty murderers go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted and executed. You can't bring the dead back. Once you are dead, you are dead. End of story. That is fact.

I disagree Thur, if 100 murderers are left unpunished then it is inevitable that atleast 50% of them will continue to murder, especially when they know they can get away with it. That means a rough minimum of 50 more innocent people are killed. Yes once you are dead you are dead, that kinda didn't need pointing out, but the fact remains if you release 100 killers into society more people will die than if you convict them all and also convict one innocent person.

How can you chose the death of 50 innocent people over that one 1? How can you justify that? Yes I agree our justice system is not infallable, and on the very rare occasion (yes I know a decade or two ago, before DNA etc, this figure was a lot higher, but it isn't now) innocent people are convicted. However, the miniscule amount of innocent people being convicted now is a far better option than for guilty people be allowed to go free and continue abusing society. Many more people suffer if the guilty are set free, than if 1 in every 100,000 convictions is an innocent person.

Originally posted by Thuringwethil
The guilty murderer might not kill again. Or he might. The point is, you can at least try to prevent him re-offending.

Yes, there is a possibilty he might be reformed, a very small one. But if you released 100 Hanibal Lectors into society then it is really inevitable that more innocent people are going to die. (And please dont anyone say that by using Hanibal as an example I am picking the worse case scenario, I chose him specifically because he is the worst case - this debabte only applies to the worst cases as they are the only ones we would look at excecuting...)

As I said, I would happily give my life to save that of 100 children - wouldn't you?

 

[Rich]

2 little girls are murdered and the topic of Capital punishment is raised
yet 200+ elderly people were killed by there GP and this topic wasnt raised then.

thats somthing i personally find frighteneing and is also the reason why CP is a bad idea.

How can you chose the death of 50 innocent people over that one 1?

if im that 1 then i would choose the deth of 50 innocent people over my lifetime in jail.

 

[Spirit]

I agree that it is worrying the topic wasn't raised regarding the Harold Shipman case, I guess this one has just a bit closer to home and has come about much more suddenly.


But I don't think that means it's a bad thing, Harold Shipman should also be strung up imho, he will never, ever reform, he is far to fucked up

Originally posted by Bluey
if im that 1 then i would choose the deth of 50 innocent people over my lifetime in jail.

So if you were given a gun and told either you kill 50 innocent ppl or you go to jail for life, you would go on a killing spree? It's a bit different when the gun is put in your own hands, but it amounts to the same thing...

 

[Andy]

RE:

Prison is about rehabilitation as much as it is punishment, people who are sent to prison for the rest of their lives have no chance of rehabilitation so I ask you whats the point, look into how much it costs to keep a prisoner in his cell each day, it is more than you may think. I am neither for or against the death penalty I just know a lot of those in prison are scum and a total drain on society on general so again why should the rest of the population pay to keep these people in a prison for so long only to let them out have them burgle, rape, murder etc.. again and have to send them back.

 

[Rich]

I guess this one has just a bit closer to home and has come about much more suddenly

its nomore closer to home and its no more sudden

its a simple fact that the deth of 2 little girls stirs up a stronger emotional respons and people start to call for the deth penalty for the wrong reasons.


its tottaly differnt if i have the gun and it does not amount to the same thing
giveing me the gun makes me the murder i have to pull that trigger i have to watch the people die and i have to bare that vision for the rest of my life that i have murdered 50 people its a completely differnt situatin