Capital Punishment Review?
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Oooo some many points to answer 
Here goes :-
In a previous post i mentioned Roy Whiting (Sarah Payne killer). About 3 weeks ago it was reported that he had been attacked in prison and stabbed in the face with a `home made knife'. Did any of u see this?...and how many of u did thought `shame they didnt kill the cunt'?
Basically i would like to see a change in our capital punishment laws to incorporate a change to 1 specific crime...and 1 crime only. Punishments for crimes all have a `range'. Custodial sentences for specific crimes vary and the duration for the term to be served is determined by the judge involved. At present, for a successful murder conviction the standard jail sentence is `life'...but `life' can range between 12 yrs( i think) to actual life behind bars. The current average time served for murder in the UK is 14 yrs. What I would like to see is the range for murder of a minor to expand and include execution. Harsh? yeah u bet. The fact of the matter is that this extremity of sentence would rarely be administered if at all...but i'd like to see it included as an option. Of course the process of getting to actually flicking the switch would be a complex 1...but 1 that i dont doubt the Lawmakers could create. I also think that it would be important to include the parents of the victims in some way once a complex procedure had determined that a termination `could' be applied. I dont know how yet but i do feel quite strongly that their views and wishes are totally put to 1 side in these matters. I dont think that the pressure of such decisions should be placed on the shoulders as such cos thats simply wrong...but their thoughts should be incorporated some way.
I dont have children myself but have many friends that do & have had g/fs with children, but if i did and it was proven to me 100% with no doubt (and i do think with todays technology that that is possible) then i would want that `person' dead...and i would expect the system that i live & work in to allow me the possible option of implementing this...and it were `successful' it would protect me from myself by killing the cunt the day he/they stepped out the fuckin prison that had been `protecting' them.
Jeez that was hard work...time for a beer
Here goes :-My argument is clear. I have been extremely specific with my stance and i'm not typing it all out again. Im not going for the most emotive example to prove a point. If u bothered to read my previous posts u should have noted that im AGAINST the death penalty as such...with the exceptional `specific' that i stated.
I dont agree. I dont want paedophile child killers in my world. U cant reform these ppl...and i'm simply not interested in spending huge sums of tax payers money trying to. They never feel remorse for what they do...ever....because its their `thing'. These `people', and i say that very loosely, are the ultimate danger to our children and we should do everything we can to protect them from it. Housing them in jails and pumping them with drugs to suppress their `needs' for years on end serves no purpose whatsoever imo.
Total bollox. Our judicial system does indeed have flaws within it but is widely regarded as 1 of the best in the World. Ur suggestion that our lawlords & top end judges are `corrupt and perverted' is quite frankly staggering....and completely without foundation.
This is a bit off the beaten track of the debate but has got me totally confused tbh. Are u saying that noone can really judge any1 else? unless of course they are totally `pure'.
This is a very intersting point imo. The media is driven by political matters where as the Law of the land should be a completely seperate entity. If this is maintained then I dont think that our Lawmakers are actually influenced by the papers. Lets be honest, if the media could influence punishment tariffs then all custodial sentences would be greatly increased and this simply doesnt happen. Our judicial system does not pander to public opinion imo...which i think is a good thing on the whole.
I know Uzi...and in general i am anti-capital punishment...except for a clearly defined `specific' that i have extensively explained. Some of u guys seem to think that its a case of `DT wants to 'ang every1!!' and i dont wish for that or have ever said it.
I agree to a degree. I would hope for the most horrendous prison experience possible for these scum.
In a previous post i mentioned Roy Whiting (Sarah Payne killer). About 3 weeks ago it was reported that he had been attacked in prison and stabbed in the face with a `home made knife'. Did any of u see this?...and how many of u did thought `shame they didnt kill the cunt'?
Well i dont agree that removing a paedophile child killer from the system makes the system as bad as the peadophile child killer. Sorry but thats the way i feel. No second chances...i simply feel we cant take the risk with these excuses for human beings.
Roy Whiting conviction is never going to be quashed CS...and i'll stake my life on that...something that Sarah Payne will never be able to do.
Basically i would like to see a change in our capital punishment laws to incorporate a change to 1 specific crime...and 1 crime only. Punishments for crimes all have a `range'. Custodial sentences for specific crimes vary and the duration for the term to be served is determined by the judge involved. At present, for a successful murder conviction the standard jail sentence is `life'...but `life' can range between 12 yrs( i think) to actual life behind bars. The current average time served for murder in the UK is 14 yrs. What I would like to see is the range for murder of a minor to expand and include execution. Harsh? yeah u bet. The fact of the matter is that this extremity of sentence would rarely be administered if at all...but i'd like to see it included as an option. Of course the process of getting to actually flicking the switch would be a complex 1...but 1 that i dont doubt the Lawmakers could create. I also think that it would be important to include the parents of the victims in some way once a complex procedure had determined that a termination `could' be applied. I dont know how yet but i do feel quite strongly that their views and wishes are totally put to 1 side in these matters. I dont think that the pressure of such decisions should be placed on the shoulders as such cos thats simply wrong...but their thoughts should be incorporated some way.
I dont have children myself but have many friends that do & have had g/fs with children, but if i did and it was proven to me 100% with no doubt (and i do think with todays technology that that is possible) then i would want that `person' dead...and i would expect the system that i live & work in to allow me the possible option of implementing this...and it were `successful' it would protect me from myself by killing the cunt the day he/they stepped out the fuckin prison that had been `protecting' them.
Jeez that was hard work...time for a beer
"Arson in Her Majesty's Naval Shipyards" (aka High Treason) (still a hanging offence).
From Lord of the Rings:
Gandalf to Frodo: "Deserve to die? I daresay he does. But many that die deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? Be then not to hasty to deal out death in judgement"
That is one side of the coin. The flipside is that prison rarely if ever reforms murderers, rapists and child molesters. The re-offending rates for these classes of detritus prove this over and over again. Prison simply provides a place for scum to brood, and learn from others like them how better to avoid being caught next time. To say nothing of the annual average cost to the taxpayer of £30,000 to keep one jailbird in the pokey for a year. (Which is more than about 70% of people earn per year.)
All crimes carrying "life imprisonment" are a joke really. The prisoner is almost always eligible for parole within 2 calendar years from entering jail. (7 for murder I think it is.)
Old proverb: "Better that one guilty man go free than one innocent man be falsely imprisoned"
The flipside to this should be: And an even worse crime is to allow a murder/rapist/child molester to reoffend, harming more innocents. Which they all do.
And all the innocents in England are fucked if they ever come to court anyway. You are no longer "Innocent until proven guilty" in the English Courts, and you no longer have the right to a Jury Trial. You are also forbidden from representing yourself now.
And the funny thing is: All these measures were introduced by a Labour government. To say nothing of their abolition of Student grants/fees, the vast explosion in state surveillance of ordinary citizens etc etc etc. UK citizens have lost more civil rights in the years since 1997 than in the previous 1997 years - which were generally marked by a reduction in the intrusive powers of the state.
As you probably can guess, I'm not a big fan of Labour...
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Draize -
No body wants child-murdering scum in the world.
If you do not believe the media would influence decisions in these cases, you are blinkered to say the least.
Cases that are in the public eye are MASSIVELY influenced by media opinion - Jill Dando anyone? Yeah that poor bastard got a fair trial:/
You forget within which field I work DT. The selling of children amongst top barristers and Judges is fucking rife. FACT.
They have the money to buy what they want. I work alongside people that are aware of who has entered into this sick trade-goddamit I have seen documentary evidence. Wonder why the bastards cant be touched fs:/
But neither you nor I have a right to decide whether someone dies or not.
Murder is murder is murder.
And other than our difference of opinion DT-this is the most interesting post on here in ages.
And Crusader, wtf are you on?
You are normally a fucking idiot-go post on a topic that your intellect can handle, like how to tie your shoelaces.
No body wants child-murdering scum in the world.
If you do not believe the media would influence decisions in these cases, you are blinkered to say the least.
Cases that are in the public eye are MASSIVELY influenced by media opinion - Jill Dando anyone? Yeah that poor bastard got a fair trial:/
You forget within which field I work DT. The selling of children amongst top barristers and Judges is fucking rife. FACT.
They have the money to buy what they want. I work alongside people that are aware of who has entered into this sick trade-goddamit I have seen documentary evidence. Wonder why the bastards cant be touched fs:/
But neither you nor I have a right to decide whether someone dies or not.
Murder is murder is murder.
And other than our difference of opinion DT-this is the most interesting post on here in ages.
And Crusader, wtf are you on?
You are normally a fucking idiot-go post on a topic that your intellect can handle, like how to tie your shoelaces.
cba to quote.. but some ppl have said killing an innocent is ok if in general the right people are being killed...
"Old proverb: "Better that one guilty man go free than one innocent man be falsely imprisoned"
The flipside to this should be: And an even worse crime is to allow a murder/rapist/child molester to reoffend, harming more innocents. Which they all do. "
sommat like that
what about the murderer/paedophile that gets away with an innocent person being killed... cant they carry on reoffending?... and another innocent person has been murdered due to the mistake.... imo should leave the death penalty in the past, its barbaric
Oh and thur said prisoners cost £30,000 a year each to keep locked up, and someone else said they live in too much comfort... two arguements to this, if theyre kept in comfort (talkin about the general prison population now not just murderers - who only make up a small number of those in prison) then it *should* be easier to help them reform whereas if you spare every expense possible and make them live on the bare minimum food,etc theyre quite likely to be a little pissed off
Altho that could work in 2 ways again... if theyre comfortable, prison may be a nicer place for them than outside in the real world.... or it could make em not wanna be locked up so they dont reoffend - aint sure which of em i think tbh![:\](/images/smilies/submitted/smark/ohwell.gif "Oh Well :\")
Kinda off topic... but no harm in bringing something different to the thread
"Old proverb: "Better that one guilty man go free than one innocent man be falsely imprisoned"
The flipside to this should be: And an even worse crime is to allow a murder/rapist/child molester to reoffend, harming more innocents. Which they all do. "
sommat like that
what about the murderer/paedophile that gets away with an innocent person being killed... cant they carry on reoffending?... and another innocent person has been murdered due to the mistake.... imo should leave the death penalty in the past, its barbaric
Oh and thur said prisoners cost £30,000 a year each to keep locked up, and someone else said they live in too much comfort... two arguements to this, if theyre kept in comfort (talkin about the general prison population now not just murderers - who only make up a small number of those in prison) then it *should* be easier to help them reform whereas if you spare every expense possible and make them live on the bare minimum food,etc theyre quite likely to be a little pissed off
Altho that could work in 2 ways again... if theyre comfortable, prison may be a nicer place for them than outside in the real world.... or it could make em not wanna be locked up so they dont reoffend - aint sure which of em i think tbh
Kinda off topic... but no harm in bringing something different to the thread
There has been several cases of investigators/experts constructing evidence to get a conviction.
I found some articles about a recent scandal in the US concerning a forensic expert that handled around 3000 cases and put 11 persons on deathrow.
http://www.nhcadp.org/joyce_gilchrist.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/05/08/60II/main290046.shtml
The reliability of forensic evidence will always be dependent on the reliability of the people who handled it, and human beings are nowhere near 100% reliable.
I found some articles about a recent scandal in the US concerning a forensic expert that handled around 3000 cases and put 11 persons on deathrow.
http://www.nhcadp.org/joyce_gilchrist.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/05/08/60II/main290046.shtml
The reliability of forensic evidence will always be dependent on the reliability of the people who handled it, and human beings are nowhere near 100% reliable.
capital punishment i believe was illegal for years in the US, but then the supreme court reversed it, but still i believe there are states where it is still illegal.
child kidnappings/murders have happened all to frequently in the US. i'm not sure what it would be like if you did per capita, but even 1 is too high.
putting people to death won't solve the problem tho. i mean, f knows how many innocents have been put to death. in some cases, advanced tools like DNA tests have proven them innocent after their deaths, but looking at the links polle provided, you can tell theres almost no way to really tell.
and quite frankly, i don't trust any person in this universe, whether it be one judge or 12 people on a jury. no one decides life or death.
i believe they should be locked up. higher crimes should definately defintately have no parole or be eligible for parole for a much longer time.
i'm not exactly an expert in the area, like thur or bb may be, but those are my jumbled up $0.02.
child kidnappings/murders have happened all to frequently in the US. i'm not sure what it would be like if you did per capita, but even 1 is too high.
putting people to death won't solve the problem tho. i mean, f knows how many innocents have been put to death. in some cases, advanced tools like DNA tests have proven them innocent after their deaths, but looking at the links polle provided, you can tell theres almost no way to really tell.
and quite frankly, i don't trust any person in this universe, whether it be one judge or 12 people on a jury. no one decides life or death.
i believe they should be locked up. higher crimes should definately defintately have no parole or be eligible for parole for a much longer time.
i'm not exactly an expert in the area, like thur or bb may be, but those are my jumbled up $0.02.
no one has the right to play god, im afraid i say no though i understand why ppl want it. if child molesters were to get the death penalty for raping a kid, whats to stop them from killing them after, if they going to get killed anyway, more chance to get away from it by killing the only witness. and as BB said , our ourt system is fooked innocent ppl get put away, it does happen, sae would happen for death penalty.
Heres something for ppl to chew on:
1 man with a bomb walks towards a busy shopping center..you have a gun and authority to shoot...wot do you do?
1 man with a bomb walks towards a busy shopping center..you have a gun and authority to shoot...wot do you do?
Dna tests don't happen like that.
Even in much less important tests it's all blind, u ain't got a clue what sample u r actually testing. I would assume they also test it at least twice by different people or even send half the sample to 1 testing place and another half to another lab.
Remember that link u provided is of really old cases.
Sure mistakes can happen, but what are the chances of them happening 4 times over or however many times it's tested nowadays ?
Even in much less important tests it's all blind, u ain't got a clue what sample u r actually testing. I would assume they also test it at least twice by different people or even send half the sample to 1 testing place and another half to another lab.
Remember that link u provided is of really old cases.
Sure mistakes can happen, but what are the chances of them happening 4 times over or however many times it's tested nowadays ?
Then you are saying that under specific circumstances it is ok to kill some1. I mean you cannot prove he was going to set the bomb off.
Life is not simply black and white.