How the US helped destroy democracy & freedom (well they do like that word dont they) in Chile 30 yrs ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/story/0,13755,1038615,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/story/0,13755,1038615,00.html
The Pinochet Files
- Thread starter Alf Roberts
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Hey - turns out IRC is out and something a little more modern has taken it's place... A little thing called Discord!
Join our community @ https://discord.gg/JuaSzXBZrk for a pick-up game, or just to rekindle with fellow community members.
The US have a longstanding record of supporting dictators, right wing fanatics, and the like. 2 perfect examples could be Osamah Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Somehow people always think they have learned from their mistake and accept that they annect a country like Iran in their "War against Terrorism"... much like they have done in South America in the "War against Drugs"... *sigh*
/me hums "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn..." and walks away down the street, with my trenchcoat pulled up over my ears, the rain pouring down and the cars lights reflecting in the water. In the distant a saxophone is heard.
/me hums "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn..." and walks away down the street, with my trenchcoat pulled up over my ears, the rain pouring down and the cars lights reflecting in the water. In the distant a saxophone is heard.
didn't we allready agree that the USA are a bunch of hypocritical cockbags that would choose a chimpansee for president as long as he has the biggest media circus around him? (xept of course steve 
and micheal moore who's program "the awfull truth" is amazing)
and micheal moore who's program "the awfull truth" is amazing)
The former USSR killed as many people (in fact more) in its Gulags than the Nazis did in their death camps. The Nazis get slated, and rightly so. But why don't (and didn't) the Soviets?
The former USSR conducted an illegal war in Afghanistan to quell rebels who didn't like being ruled in dictatorial fashion by Moscow.
The current Russian regime is still conducting an illegal war in Chechenya. It also, together with its predecessor the USSR also bankrolled and supported various evil and dictatorial regimes in South America and Africa from about 1945 until its eventual collapse during the course of its war of ideology with the USA and other "western nations".
I'm always fascinated by the fact that people who slate the USA for its questionable foreign policy never mention the flip side of the coin as far as this relates to its main rivals.
Why is that I wonder?
Note for the anal retentive: I'm not condoning the actions of the USA. I'm just curious as to why people focus on the USA and ignore the other (former) superpowers?
It can't be because the USA hypocritically professes to love freedom and democracy and yet often acts in ways totally incompatible with those things.
I mean, the USSR was supposed to be a worker's paradise where everyone would be cared for, where government would be just and accountable, and the people would be masters of their own destiny.
Funny how it ended up being the only nation in the world to have developed an "advanced capitalist economy" of the kind described by Karl Marx - brutal and oppresive police state, massive military-industrial complex, oppression of the people on a vast scale, shortage of basic food supplies for the people while the political elite lived in pampered luxury and had special shops to cater for them far away from the plebs. All as described by Marx.
The former USSR conducted an illegal war in Afghanistan to quell rebels who didn't like being ruled in dictatorial fashion by Moscow.
The current Russian regime is still conducting an illegal war in Chechenya. It also, together with its predecessor the USSR also bankrolled and supported various evil and dictatorial regimes in South America and Africa from about 1945 until its eventual collapse during the course of its war of ideology with the USA and other "western nations".
I'm always fascinated by the fact that people who slate the USA for its questionable foreign policy never mention the flip side of the coin as far as this relates to its main rivals.
Why is that I wonder?
Note for the anal retentive: I'm not condoning the actions of the USA. I'm just curious as to why people focus on the USA and ignore the other (former) superpowers?
It can't be because the USA hypocritically professes to love freedom and democracy and yet often acts in ways totally incompatible with those things.
I mean, the USSR was supposed to be a worker's paradise where everyone would be cared for, where government would be just and accountable, and the people would be masters of their own destiny.
Funny how it ended up being the only nation in the world to have developed an "advanced capitalist economy" of the kind described by Karl Marx - brutal and oppresive police state, massive military-industrial complex, oppression of the people on a vast scale, shortage of basic food supplies for the people while the political elite lived in pampered luxury and had special shops to cater for them far away from the plebs. All as described by Marx.
yeah sure there re much more brutal countries... so?
does that make the US innocent? i reckon not
furthermore the current US gov't keeps painting things black and white while they re always the "whitest" part
the reason y i criticize the US is not them making mistakes but their self righteousness
they just cant concede that they ve done loads of bullshit by violating their own highest principles - democracy, freedom, and human rights
does that make the US innocent? i reckon not
furthermore the current US gov't keeps painting things black and white while they re always the "whitest" part
the reason y i criticize the US is not them making mistakes but their self righteousness
they just cant concede that they ve done loads of bullshit by violating their own highest principles - democracy, freedom, and human rights
not getting on the i hate the usa train but i would like to correct something here
The former USSR killed as many people (in fact more) in its Gulags than the Nazis did in their death camps. The Nazis get slated, and rightly so. But why don't (and didn't) the Soviets?
Close to the truth but still a bit off, communists killed more people than the nazi's, not just russians but all other commie's together killed more people then the nazi's did.
The former USSR killed as many people (in fact more) in its Gulags than the Nazis did in their death camps. The Nazis get slated, and rightly so. But why don't (and didn't) the Soviets?
Close to the truth but still a bit off, communists killed more people than the nazi's, not just russians but all other commie's together killed more people then the nazi's did.
Like it was said, the USSR, not russia, there is a distinct difference. A reason the USA gets "slated" more, is probably because they are the single most powerfull nation. A tthing you could hope inspired respect and second thoughts,but alas...
And I don't know what your reading, to my knowledge the USSR is and have been "slated" for the deaths commited during the totalitarian regime.
And I don't know what your reading, to my knowledge the USSR is and have been "slated" for the deaths commited during the totalitarian regime.
History books and general perceptions - ask people to name a bunch of genocidal mass murderers and most times they mention the Nazis. The soviets in the former USSR are for some odd reason generally overlooked.
Same goes for the usa helping millions of people and freeing europe of adolf hitler, after the war the marshall plan helped us rebuild europe. Although they did a lot of good things people tend to overlook the good things. Guess the halo effect works for nations aswell.
Anyways to get back on topic.
I completely recognise the fact that the usa harmed a lot of countries and tend to be the "world" police, but what i want to know , is there a direct cause for this? I often get the idea that agencies like the FBI, CIA, or even the us army have way too much power on their hands. To my knowledge the cia and the fbi have supported dictators and terrorists all over the world, then later on fought wars with them. But what i want to know is, was the president informed on this, did those agencies acted on orders, or was it an overinfluential man with a bit 2 much power?
/me stops ranting and wonders if this is on topic.
Same goes for the usa helping millions of people and freeing europe of adolf hitler, after the war the marshall plan helped us rebuild europe. Although they did a lot of good things people tend to overlook the good things. Guess the halo effect works for nations aswell.
Anyways to get back on topic.
I completely recognise the fact that the usa harmed a lot of countries and tend to be the "world" police, but what i want to know , is there a direct cause for this? I often get the idea that agencies like the FBI, CIA, or even the us army have way too much power on their hands. To my knowledge the cia and the fbi have supported dictators and terrorists all over the world, then later on fought wars with them. But what i want to know is, was the president informed on this, did those agencies acted on orders, or was it an overinfluential man with a bit 2 much power?
/me stops ranting and wonders if this is on topic.
The President is the end responsible for all the actions of the various agency, if he doesn't know what they are doing, he isn't doing his job properly, simple as that innit?
The US freed europe?
The USSR lost 28 million in the war, that is somehow also always forgotten?
There are no black and white, but I do percieve the US as being more "black" than "white" when it comes to international politics, another example could be Israel
The US freed europe?
The USSR lost 28 million in the war, that is somehow also always forgotten?There are no black and white, but I do percieve the US as being more "black" than "white" when it comes to international politics, another example could be Israel
well i kinda agree with thur here ... theres actualy a difference between doing it on purpose like Hitler and yes like Stalin ... and doing it cos u are just too dump to think of the consequenses it might have in the future... lets say the US gouvernments had a unlucky hand choosing there local dictators...
Unlukcy hand choosing dictators??? Bullshit, yeah pardon me, but the very fact they are supporting dictators should be enuff, and stop with the fucking nazi / ussr comparisions already? The issue at hand is NOT two former fascistic totalitarian states, but the "World Police" fucking up the world we live in, without people objecting.
i also agree with dog here
good point regarding responsability, but it wasn't the answer i was looking for.
As for the usa saving europe, i think we should all agree that it was a joined effort. without allied supplies and help the russians would have lost a lot more aswell.
one more off topic question
If adolf hitler didnt declare war on the usa after pearl harbour, would the usa still have helped europe?
/me stops ranting again.
good point regarding responsability, but it wasn't the answer i was looking for.
As for the usa saving europe, i think we should all agree that it was a joined effort. without allied supplies and help the russians would have lost a lot more aswell.
one more off topic question
If adolf hitler didnt declare war on the usa after pearl harbour, would the usa still have helped europe?
/me stops ranting again.
Eventually, yeah I reckon, since there was also a lot of economic issues involved, but probably not as soon, and most likely not that massively
Dog said:The President is the end responsible for all the actions of the various agency, if he doesn't know what they are doing, he isn't doing his job properly, simple as that innit?
The US freed europe?
There are no black and white, but I do percieve the US as being more "black" than "white" when it comes to international politics, another example could be Israel
I pointed out the USSR/Nazi thing just to illustrate the flipside of the coin. Your posts are exclusively ranting against the "evil" USA. Now, fair enough, but you're ignoring your own comments about "black and white".
Again, perhaps not the best example, but ask the non-nazi Germans who freed Europe, the USSR or the USA. The USSR did lose 28 million odd people - and largely because for a long time, Stalin & Hitler had a non-aggression pact with each other, until Hitler decided he wanted Soviet land and natural resources.
The USSR then proceeded to lose millions of soldiers because most of its best generals had been liquidated in the "purges" when the Bolsheviks came to power. So the soldiers had no decent leaders, and they were also (at first) chronically ill-equipped.
As to Israel, well, I suppose your worldview changes somewhat when you are ringed around with hostile nations who seem to enjoy suicide bombing school buses full of children. That's not to say they don't commit atrocities too. Its just not as "black and white" as you are painting it dog.
As to the whole world police thing, this is why I mention these other points. "Local" problems that others have "no business interfering in" have a nasty habit of spreading. Two world wars and countless smaller ones since have shown us this.
Diplomacy only works so far. And it only works when there is the threat of military action behind it. I wonder how long Milosevic would have gone on ignoring all the hand-wringing by the EU politicians had NATO and American forces not got involved?
Like it or not, "Europe" has been totally unable to deal with dictators or nutters acting from one of its member or neighbouring states without outside help.
I saw a prog recently about the USG and CIA involvement in Chile that saw
the rise of Pinochet.
Interestingly they pointed toward Chile as being the most likely culprit
for 9/11. Even the date matches up with CIA planned assassination of
the old Chillean leader or something.
the rise of Pinochet.
Interestingly they pointed toward Chile as being the most likely culprit
for 9/11. Even the date matches up with CIA planned assassination of
the old Chillean leader or something.
holy sake Dog i dont try to justify the support off dictators !!! I just said there IS a difference between it !
point 2 (maybe offtopic but reply to thurs post) yeah the USA saved europ from the nazis ...thats absolutely true and we are very thankfull for that.
But we cannot be so thantkfull that we do waht USA tell us forever... if thats the way USA would owe france a shit load of favours ...
point 2 (maybe offtopic but reply to thurs post) yeah the USA saved europ from the nazis ...thats absolutely true and we are very thankfull for that.
But we cannot be so thantkfull that we do waht USA tell us forever... if thats the way USA would owe france a shit load of favours ...