Religion, eh?... Discuss

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Personal religion: fine by me, since it just equates to a set of ethics and morals and a way of conducting yourself and living your life.

Mass religion: once you get one set of people arguing with another set of people over whose god is best, or a bunch of bigots telling everyone 'this is how you should live your life, and this is how you shouldn't, and if you don't agree with us then our God will hate you and so will we', then you have a problem.
 
disclaimer - more opinion from me

original religeon was probably formed as a method of gaining power, as it matured most I imagnien it passed though a phrase where it was genuinely good, and this is where most people current view of religeon comes from. Nowerdays (and as it was in past) religeon has a huge power over the world, and the people at the top got there because they are power seekers, just like in poletics. the people at the top, having this power, like to use it to try and shape other peoples actions and beliefs, including the goverments, this is where religeon goes from being a genuine love and belief in a greater being into being a form of control. I have no problem with religeon, however when it becomes a form of control it isnt right.
 
PyROm said:
disclaimer - more opinion from me

original religeon was probably formed as a method of gaining power, as it matured most I imagnien it passed though a phrase where it was genuinely good, and this is where most people current view of religeon comes from. Nowerdays (and as it was in past) religeon has a huge power over the world, and the people at the top got there because they are power seekers, just like in poletics. the people at the top, having this power, like to use it to try and shape other peoples actions and beliefs, including the goverments, this is where religeon goes from being a genuine love and belief in a greater being into being a form of control. I have no problem with religeon, however when it becomes a form of control it isnt right.

I agree, religion is too often in use by politics and not only as a form of control, and thats just bs :/
 
I have a very simple view on things, maby thats just me, but when all things are said an done, religion is not politics, so religion shouldnt really come into politics, therefore the people who give out Gods word should not have anything to do with politics. That is if God really excitists.
Also another view to do with gay marriges or any kind of marriage, if you love someone enough to want to marry them, faults and all, then you should be able to do it, no matter weather you r 2 women, 2 men, or a man and a woman.
 
Snuggs said:
and about topic


religion is a way to control the dumbness

and as long there are religions...there will be no peace :(

surely that should read;
religion is a way to control the dumbness

and as long there are religions...there will be dumb people?
 
I've stated before my opinion on religion.. and I think it is a good thing for those who are in need...

The idea that you can call out to a higher or superior being to do the impossible, to ask for a miracle or a favour through praying gives people hope. I think that when people or their loved ones are suffering and unable to do anything they call out to that someone and ask for the impossible. Hope is a great mental stabaliser for some people, be they weak or just unable to handle a situation, or want open guidance.

One truely moving story I found, was the Channel 4 film called "The Boy whos skin fell off". For those who didn't see it, a the breif synopsis is that a child was born who had an extremely rare skin condition which meant it was unable to repair itself, and even just wearing clothes was enough to cause huge blisters and sores all over the body. Doctors were stumped by the problem, and his own father left him when he was 5 or 6 years old as he couldn't deal with the situation.

Jonny, had suffered throughout his whole life, in huge amounts of pain daily. The documentary is when he is age 35 to 36, and he has spent his whole life being a dedicated Christian. He believes that the entire point to his life is that others learn from his condition, so that they won't have to suffer like he has. He spent his life raising awareness for his charity, which has found a cure for anyone who is lucky enough to be diagnosed in time.

Yet, the thing that stands out the most what his personality and sense of humour. The guy made everyone laugh all the time. And it wasn't just jokes at his own expensive, or because they felt sorry for him. He was a unique character, inspirational person. And thats just from watching the TV.

He wouldn't have got through life without his religion and the support it offered him. I think it's an (extreme) example of how religion can give you focus and try and address some unanswerable questions. Sure you might be fooling yourself, but that doesn't matter. If you need hope, you have to put your faith into something which may or may not exist - the gamble is worth it. To have nothing worth living for in life, in constant agony is a seriously bad situation to be in. Without his religious community to support him, he would have given up years ago. He soley lived to improved the quality of life for other people, whilst suffering incredibly. I don't know of a more outstanding, respectful attribute a person could have in life.

He sadly died at the age of 36, and nobody cried at his funeral. It was a celebration of his achivements and acknowledgement of his courage that only a few people in this world could top. I think I'll always remember him.

On the other side, I do believe that religion is the cause of many of histories chaotic periods. But I see this as abuse of religion and faith, that the people who lead us require a (semi) universal connection between people, and that something is religion. Its connection drives people to follow their peers, and if they disagree or do not fit in they are outcast by their social peers, family etc.

I was Christened when I was a child, and attended A United Reformed Church up until the age of about 13. My Great Grandmother was a Jehovah Witness and had plenty of books around her house. She recommended them to me once or twice, but still participated in Christmas dinner and sending cards with a gift, even though they didn't have seasonal pictures or messages in them.
My Family hasn't forced me into any religion, unless you consider the Christening, which I personally now disagree with myself as an adult.

Now, I don't even try and group myself, or call myself an Atheist. I do not believe in a god or God. My religion is my own, and I have called for that superior being and superhuman favour in the past. It gives you the right to ask yourself for more strength. As long as you can live life by your own rules which you gain slowly from your life experience, I don't see a need for religion in my life. For those who maybe want to follow someone elses guide lines, I think they should have that option. But I don't think they should be exploited in the ways that they are by the people who represent their overall views.
 
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But then, its easy to blame the religion, those ppl simply can say 'kill them in the name of god' but a person who say so really think so?
unfortunally many religious fanatics really think so. You find everywhere on the planet example for that, even in the western world: look at the bible belt in the USA (full of christian fanatics).
But after when you finally finish blame religion about all those bad things happened in the past, maybe think about whats good happened thx to some religions.

Thx to religion, we have no komunism in poland, yes and only thx to religion ONLY.
Dunno about the exact history of poland.
But see how many unnecessary wars were battled in the name of religion. How many people suffered in the past and today?
How many bad choices does religion caused in the past? And even today: Just llok what Johannes Paul II. talk and what bs he say.

Ask yourself: Are the positive aspects really more compared to the negative aspects?
Yes i see the good things the religion do for people. They give people hope in bad times (and the modern chirch help poor and ill people), but for such actions religion ain't needed.
 
unfortunally many religious fanatics really think so. You find everywhere on the planet example for that, even in the western world: look at the bible belt in the USA (full of christian fanatics).

Yes i meant here, that they dont give a damn about ppl, god etc, its a 'clock' to fool ppl.
They not really believe in god etc.



Ask yourself: Are the positive aspects really more compared to the negative aspects?
Yes i see the good things the religion do for people. They give people hope in bad times (and the modern chirch help poor and ill people), but for such actions religion ain't needed.

Maybe not, but in small towns, such a ppl can count only on a church.
Well if they go to their gov and ask for some food, do they get it? yes after a few months, in church there is always place for such a ppl, at least here where i live, i understand how much ppl abuse religion, and thats really piss me off, but not everyone are like them, there are ppl that wouldnt go on a war/battle even in the name of their god, still they are catholics. I think christians following every rule, catholics not, as god gave ppl will to choose.
There is a lill different between a cahtolic and a christian, i have feeling that cahtolics are more peace-lovers than christians. Maybe even a lot more.

Ive never heard here where i live about religion abuse... curches here, as far as i know give ppl, not take something from them.
They not asking to give church some money...

I havent been in a church for over 3 years now, but still my faith is always the same, im not any fanatic, i just were born in a catholic familly, and when the time come to choose if i want continue my cathilicism i did choosen it.

I rather believe in something than believe in nothing.
Always some hope, some support, i know that ppl that dont believe in anything wont understand this.
Ive always followed my own rules, none told me how to live, i doing everything by my own, with my faith :)
 
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I've shared my thoughts about religion before as well but I need to share my point in this thread since I feel that some people like Wintermute need to see the difference between religion and belief.

My religious status is Evangelical-Lutheran. Yet, I'm not a believer of the Christian God nor the Bible but due to things which have made and make my life, and eventually death, easier, my religious status will stay the same. I have my own view on the world which involves a God in the way Hegel sees it: everything is God and God is in everything. It's more of a philosophy than a belief but nonetheless involves the term 'God'. Why I have such a belief is that it's my way of trying to understand why I am here and what I'm supposed to be doing. Along that, I have a set of moral and ethic rules which I live by, which are pretty much the same as of any Western person. I'd like to think myself as a rational person who does require most things to be scientifically proven to be of any worth.

I see no harm in people believing in some omnipotent power as long as it doesn't affect other people's lives. As Martz already pointed out people are fragile beings who need to have fate in things to work out in order to live a happy life. Even a man of science has a belief, his belief in science, which guides him through his life. Problems arise when a belief turns into an institution for its own gain. Here, the definition should change from 'a religion' into 'a political body', but unfortunately it doesn't.

I think most of the disgust towards religion is due to some of the actions done in the name of religion or by representatives of those religions. Catholic priests sexually abusing children, women rights being denied in Iran, etc. This is where religion definitely takes a blow but most people don't even seem to understand that it's not the religion, it is the people. Child molesters can be found in all occupations which involve trust and give an opportunity to forge the minds of little children: priests, teachers, pediatricians, etc. Islam is being stereotyped as a religion of warmongers and people who stomp on human rights but it's being overlooked that if one actually studies the Koran, there's nothing about how women should cover their faces and bodies. By any standards, Islam is probably the most peace loving religion next to Buddhism.

I'm actually a bit offended by people who accuse others of being narrow-minded and in the same time label people with religious beliefs as stupid. I agree that religion has been the chalk-line for many awful things but that shouldn't label a person with beliefs as somehow lesser man than the 'scientist'. After all, science has it's share of beliefs which are constantly fluctuating in the duration of time just because there are no means to prove things the way or the other.

I hope this thread doesn't turn into another "prove that God does/doesn't exist" thing which we all know to be a pointless waste of time for everyone.
 
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Here is how I think, but first you have to know: I don't care about religion, it's unnecesary to me :uhh:
There are soo many real, proven things on earth, to waste my time with that.

BUT, Religion has had/does have a purpose: scaring people, thus keeping the masses under control.

It helps you to control "weak-minded" people. I explain: In the middel ages, the masses had nothing for them, just death.
What did the church say?This:"This is only the beginning, after that if you're nice, you'll have eternal life with everything you want" So, if your parents believe that, and you're told it's this way, then you will try not to be bad to anyone, especially not the rich people from the church, because you could go to Hell for annoying them.
The church controlled people in misery for hundreds of years, before they even thought about some kind of revolution.

^^This is impossible to do with "conventional" methods. gg church


The extremist muslim terrorists are promised a place in heaven, when they do some kind of suicide attack. It works :| some people make themselves explode with other people.

Some other similar "control"-structure is the system of "castes".
They believe they're newborn after their death, and if they were nice in the life they just died in, they'll be in a higher "caste". On the other hand if they were bad, they go down in the society or even can become an animal.
People of one social "level" rarely have contacts, even today! Marriage between different classes was forbidden too.


The strength of religion resides in the fact that if you can make some people believe something, they'll take everything.
A perfect god for control would of course not be a nice, mercyfull god, but a god that scares, and silently terrorises everyone, because of his power and his mystery.

If perfectly manipulated , religion can be the most powerfull weapon EVER, because it controls both human ignorance and human stupidity, the two things you can't fight in any way :(



If there is a god above, I'm on his blacklist :cool:
 
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I am Christain, i have been christened, and i have been confirmed, but i do not go to church regularly, and i do not pray at night or read the bible, I am also not sure weather a God exsits. This is because of the house i was brought up in.
My mother brough me up since the ages of about 6yrs, when my dad left us for another "life", I am sure if it wasnt for my mums religion she would have not got through the break-up of her marriage, or i would not be the person i am today. She bielived, or hoped there is higher being, but she did not belive that religion should not be forced upon people, wars should not be started in the name of religion and people are allowed to have their own views. This is also my view, I wouldnt be the same person as i am today if it wasnt for my mother, and my mother wouldnt have been such a nice person if it wasnt for her religion, as she would have probably just given up on life, or become a really spitefull person.

Because of religion, she became a wonderfull person, even better than she was, and before you ask, i know this because the 100 or so people told me this at her funeral, all of them said the same thing, that she was one of the kindest honest person they knew, and she wouldnt have been this person without god an christ. So religion does do some very good things.
This is why i will not say religion is bad. But it is wrong when people start taking religion into the "he/her is not the same colour as me, so he/her is evil" and the "he/her religion isnt the same as mine so they shouldnt be allowed to live". Thats just not right.

Now i cant think of what else to put now, so ill shut up, btw sorry for any spelling mistakes :/
 
This is probably not quite strictly on-topic, but I feel this thread is as relevant as any other:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1409393,00.html

For those to lazy to read / don't want to soil their mouse finger by clicking on the "right-wing" Times link, its basically an article about the new Education Minister in the UK, Ruth Kelly. Apparently, she has been promoted to this position ahead of colleagues with more experience, and this is causing some friction amongst her erstwhile colleagues.

In addition, there are allegations that she is a member of a secretive Catholic group, Opus Dei. Now, leaving aside for a moment the usual plethora of "why do you nasty people all pick on us poor Catholics all the time", I'd just like to make one or two observations of my own:-

1. I believe it is wholly inappropriate for the goverment Education Minister to be an adherent of any religion, far less a possible member of a "cult" offshoot of a major religion, which has its own, objectionable agenda.

2. Do I detect the hand of Cherie Blair, herself a Catholic, in this promotion?

3. Anyone else noticed how many Catholics are quietly assuming positions of power in this government?

If anyone wishes to construe these observations I have made as anti-catholic, then please feel free. However, I am making them from the point of view of being, as I am, anti-religion in general. I am utterly opposed to any member of government wielding public power in a secular western democracy being an adherent of religion, and especially not a member of secretive religious societies. I would be making exactly the same comments if I saw Islamic, Judaic, Protestant Christian, Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, Budhist, Sikh or any other flavour of religious person or group assuming control in or of the organs of a democratic state.

To clarify my views for everyone:

I am in no way opposed to people believing in what they want to, and will defend their right to do so.

However, I am firmly of the opinion that religion should be something for the individual. It should not be for them to try and force it on others, and I am firmly opposed to organised religion assuming or obtaining any form of public power.

Why? Power is like a drug to those who have it. It becomes an end in itself. I consider that much of the new wave of (especially Christian & Islamic) religious militancy is the direct result of the increasing secularity of the modern world. The main religions are seeing a fall-off in numbers, believers and converts. This means those in the higher echelons of the religious heirarchy are seeing their power-base dissipate, their assets and influence decrease. Naturally, they are doing all in their power to try and stop this. Witness for example the new wave of Islamic militancy, the evangelical christian "Alpha Course" and many other things.

Organised religion has, in my view, no part in the running or structure of the state. Government of a state should be by secular non-believers. The world's worst atrocities have been, in my opinion, committed when the major, organised religion of a country goaded the leaders into unwise courses of action. The Christian Crusades, the Burning Times, the Islamic invasion of southern Europe and so on and on.

On a small, local scale, religion can be a force for good. On a large scale, it becomes like any large group - concerned more with accumulating and maintaining wealth and power, and wielding influence over the lives of people.

I think it is no coincidence that the worst times of religious oppression, low levels of literacy, low levels of learning and advancement have all coincided (and are all coinciding) with high levels of religious belief and membership of organised religions.

Organised religion has a vested interest, in my opinion, of keeping as many people as poor and uneducated as possible. With education comes knowledge, the possibility of personal advancement and improval, and a realisation that those in positions of power should be questioned and criticised like everyone else.

In my view, the mainstream monotheistic religions (Islam, Christianity (both protestant and catholic) and Judaism) have become more concerned with observance of ritual than adherence to and practice of the common supposed tenets of their beliefs - helping the poor, loving the neighbour and abjuring the accumulation of power and wealth.
 
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Lot of positive stuff in here...

I have to say I agree with Thur on this one - there's a dark spot in our history during the last parliament. Blair and Bush at Camp David, pray to God about the situation in Iraq, and decide what to do... before the matter is even presented to parliament. This latest one is just mor of the same. :|

The whole thought of us engaging in a war that has cost the lives of British troops on the whim of someone's religion is frankly disgusting. A War for oil has altogether more moral fibre - at least securing Oil is in our national interest.

The claws of religion digging into parliament is one of the few issues that really worries me. I can see economic policy that bounces one way or the other with pretty much the same results for those of us just working away in small business, but the thought of religions getting more influence and power over our lives by sneaking in the back door... that's scary.

One thing about personal faith - I feel that it cheapens the human being. When my father died, I heard the same sort of thing, he was a great "man of god". bollocks. he was a great father, not a pawn of some god. In Nightowl's example you can see it clearly... I am sure your mother had inner strength of character and was a good person. It's anoying then to have the church swoop in to claim the credit for their god. I am certain my Dad would have been just the same good helpful guy if he had never joined a church.

What we are not seeing here, of course, is anyone defending the churches. Perhaps they know that it's a lost cause ;)
 
Thuringwethil said:
1. I believe it is wholly inappropriate for the goverment Education Minister to be an adherent of any religion, far less a possible member of a "cult" offshoot of a major religion, which has its own, objectionable agenda.

[AOL] me too [/AOL]

This position requires making decisions for the education of children and it cannot be left up to someone who may be influenced by their religion. I think it would probably be impractical to prevent any adherant of religion from being minister simply because there are so many who are and so few who arent, but they should at least be screened for "cult offshoot" membership.

This isnt just from an athiest point of view, this sort of thing helps protect religions as well. If none are allowed to hold power all will benefit. If one gains power, all other religions suffer, not just people like me without religion.

We just have to hope that she can leave her opus dei hat outside the education ministers door...
 
Mughi said:
[AOL] me too [/AOL]
We just have to hope that she can leave her opus dei hat outside the education ministers door...

Unlikely. Her religion/cult has its own set agenda to be pursued by whatever means from my initial research into it. Even more reason to have her removed. Given that she has joined this cult, its obvious she places her religion above all else.
 
Thuringwethil said:
1. I believe it is wholly inappropriate for the goverment Education Minister to be an adherent of any religion, far less a possible member of a "cult" offshoot of a major religion, which has its own, objectionable agenda.

What he said, religion is ok in small groups but religion should never be used to gain power. As ive said before Religion is religion, NOT politics.
 
Wintermute said:
One thing about personal faith - I feel that it cheapens the human being. When my father died, I heard the same sort of thing, he was a great "man of god". bollocks. he was a great father, not a pawn of some god. In Nightowl's example you can see it clearly... I am sure your mother had inner strength of character and was a good person. It's anoying then to have the church swoop in to claim the credit for their god. I am certain my Dad would have been just the same good helpful guy if he had never joined a church.

It wasn't his own faith that cheapened him but the people who refer to him as a subordinate of God. Did his belief make him a less of a man? I doubt it. Personal faith when kept just that, personal, can be the last driving force of a person. If you take that away just because you see it as some evil which degrades a man, it could make the person lose one's hope in life altogether.

You still see too much of a connection between religion and personal belief which are two totally different things. I think we all agree that religion has a place in this world but only in local scale can religion do any good for mankind. If a religion becomes a political entity driving it's own political agendas, all the things which define the religion are usually swept aside.