OT: P&S forum problems | Was: Free Trade - A sick joke?

[dog]

Right, I've been quiet for very fucking long, but today I took my sick pills, a deep breath, and read all of thurs ramblings in this thread... I must start by saying that I probably will not be arsed to do it again, I had a good reason to put thur on ignore in the first place, so Thur, pls have a field day playing ur childish word games with my post, I will not be responding. However:

If it wasn't for "capitalist greed" we wouldn't have drugs to treat just about every ailment known to man. That is a fact. I don't, and never have denied that there may be an element of profiteering involved. But to paint this as the sole status quo is both ignorant and misinformed. Do that research for me. Until you do, I'm going to ignore your misinformed comments

Yes there are no persons involved in drug research for other reasons than pure "capitalist greed"? How so is it a fact, because you say so? I doubt that very much, thank you. I don't see anyone but you painting the world black and white thur, and that last sentence simply shows what a arrogant person you truely are.

I brought up that other article to point out what seemed to me to be highly amusing - i.e. one guardian article essentially contradicting another. So much for journalistic integrity. Or maybe you missed that subtle point...

And

Wide circulation does not imply respectability. "Das Volk" was widely read. And a paper full of articles which contradict each other doesn't really convince me of the integrity of its journalism. To say nothing of its obvious political bias.

So you would rather have a narrow minded newspaper that only provides one view of things? So much for diversity and objectivism.

Yep, I'd talk exactly the same to you to your face. I tend to treat ignorant people who insult me and get their facts wrong with haughty disdain.

More arrogance, lovely.

Yep, you're still missing the point. Go back, sit down, have your weetabix and then wonder why people jump on you for posting a load of mouldy old mince.

The only one in here I see constantly being a aggresive and unconstructive debater in here, is you dear Thur.

Ahh, more personal insults. It really is a shame you have to resort to those. But then, when you have no facts to back up your points, I suppose its all you can manage. :shrug:

Pot, kettle, black? You are the one constantly attacking people, instead of the issue, the one dismissing people as being unintteligent, even tho you have absolutely no basis to rest on, the one who uses snide remarks constantly, and have never to my knowledge acknowledge anyone but yourself to have a point, a valid argument or the right to hold any other position than the one you have.

As for not being arsed to read this forum, I can perfectly understand it, somehow I always leave this saddend by the fact that one person can completely screw up an entire forum for everyone else. Even sadder still is the fact that it is a moderator that is completely unable to follow the rules set up for the forum, even tho he himself have formulated them to my knowledge.

Thur: You're being a crap debater in these forums, I have little to say about ur moderating as such, but ur whole attitude and the fact that you ARE moderator of this forum, does little to make this forum a better place. My feeling is you consider it your own personal playing ground... how sad is that?

If I didn't know any better, I would judge ur age to be somewhere between 16 and 20, but seeing as you have completed ur education, you obviously are older. Too bad your social skills and ability to debate in a sober tone have not aged with you.

I will not question ur intelligence, but ur empathy, social skills, debate skills; leave much to be asked for.

If you had any common sense; you'd either step down as moderator, or improve your behaviour on this forum.

Thats all, I wount be responding, so feel free to use personal insults, snide remarks, arrogant bs and what else your arsenal of immature rethoric holds.

Dan - Fed up with the BS

 

[Cutter]

That-a-girl Thuring!! Keep stamping that little foot of urs.

`I will win, I WILL BE RESPECTED!! I WILL, I WILL, I WILLLLLLLLL!!!'

Ahh, yet more insults.

I don't want your respect, or need it. I already have the respect of real people in the real world who know me. You don't, and you don't matter to me at all.

I just enjoy pointing our the errors and bias in your posts.

I'm sure you would say the same about me.

 

[Cutter]

Ahh, getting out of bed on the wrong side still dan?

Yes there are no persons involved in drug research for other reasons than pure "capitalist greed"? How so is it a fact, because you say so? I doubt that very much, thank you. I don't see anyone but you painting the world black and white thur, and that last sentence simply shows what a arrogant person you truely are.

Fact: All modern drugs for the treatment of disease are developed, researched, or marketed either by companies out to make money for shareholders, or Hospital laboratories out to make money to survive. So far as I know, no-one is developing drugs for the sheer altruistic hell of it, because it's too expensive. Do feel free to prove me wrong dan. Although, since you havn't done this already, I must assume you can't.

You and alfie are the ones talking of greed. I'm just talking about capitalism. The two are not inextricably linked. If you'd bothered to read some textbooks on economics, or just stuck your head outside the darkened pit of your bedroom, you'd realise this.

So you would rather have a narrow minded newspaper that only provides one view of things? So much for diversity and objectivism.

Did I say this? No. All I was doing was pointing out that the paper rants in one article, and contradicts itself in another. This is a big crime on my part why?

More arrogance, lovely.

"Pot, kettle.." etc etc

The only one in here I see constantly being a aggresive and unconstructive debater in here, is you dear Thur.

Me checks posts: only one I see being aggresive, insulting and resorting to bad language here is you doggie poos. Even alfie can argue with a bit more style and cleaner language. How about you shut your mouth until you have something you can say without swearing dog?

Pot, kettle, black? You are the one constantly attacking people, instead of the issue, the one dismissing people as being unintteligent, even tho you have absolutely no basis to rest on, the one who uses snide remarks constantly, and have never to my knowledge acknowledge anyone but yourself to have a point, a valid argument or the right to hold any other position than the one you have.

No, I am attacking the points they make. There is a difference. If I resort to a bit of sarcasm in my replies, well, reflect on this:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

As for not being arsed to read this forum, I can perfectly understand it, somehow I always leave this saddend by the fact that one person can completely screw up an entire forum for everyone else. Even sadder still is the fact that it is a moderator that is completely unable to follow the rules set up for the forum, even tho he himself have formulated them to my knowledge.

Martz formulated the rules to this forum. Not me. So you're wrong again. If you have a complaint, take it to the people in charge - Martz or Spirit. All mods are here at their sufference, so if they want me to go, I will happily go. But I'll still keep responding to your mad posts.

Thur: You're being a crap debater in these forums, I have little to say about ur moderating as such, but ur whole attitude and the fact that you ARE moderator of this forum, does little to make this forum a better place. My feeling is you consider it your own personal playing ground... how sad is that?

If you would bother to check, I only respond in sharp tongued fashion when I am insulted first. This thread is a good example - Alfie's initial post contained no info or comments of his own, just a link and a subtle insult aimed at me. As to a crap debater, so? Is that a crime? I don't see you making any reasoned points or providing any proof of what you say. All you ever post is bad tempered rants. Don't come on here to vent your general life frustrations.

If I didn't know any better, I would judge ur age to be somewhere between 16 and 20, but seeing as you have completed ur education, you obviously are older. Too bad your social skills and ability to debate in a sober tone have not aged with you.

Ahh, more insults. Anything else to say?

empathy, social skills, debate skills; leave much to be asked for.

No proof, no examples, you don't know me in real life but the impression I'm getting of you is a self righteous bad tempered ninny. Tell me, when you think you are seeing me, are you in fact looking in the mirror>

If you had any common sense; you'd either step down as moderator, or improve your behaviour on this forum.

This from another moderator who swears and insults people for no good reason. Pot, Kettle etc etc. I'm sure you know the drill by now.

Thats all, I wount be responding, so feel free to use personal insults, snide remarks, arrogant bs and what else your arsenal of immature rethoric holds.

You keep saying this, but you keep coming back for another random attack of abusive language and general flaming. I'm looking forward to the next visit already.

Dan - Fed up with the BS

Well, if you would keep your head up your own backside all the time...

 

[jwer_NL]

can i be moderator of these forums plzzzz

so i can kick thur, dan and whoever that alf roberts is and make these forums cool and worth reading

 

[Joko]

Thur doesn't need to stamp a foot to be respected - it's just amusing when your underneath it

Btw "Alf" aka Mr Imalwaysright (no pun intended ) you still havent answered my question?

Quote:
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Cant u ppl just post the article without the snide little remarks at one another? Your like kids, discussing politics.
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Where does it say im not referring to thur aswell? You're all as bad as each other.

 

[Alf Roberts]

Btw "Alf" aka Mr Imalwaysright (no pun intended ) you still havent answered my question?

That isnt a pun

Well tbh Joko i didnt answer ur question cos it was crap & off subject.

...but to answer u anyway if u insist...where did i suggest that u wasnt referring to Thuring as well as me? I didnt...i just said she'd be `top of the league' of snide comments.

Have u been patiently waiting for me to answer it?

 

[Martz]

Enough from all of you.

@Joko: you haven't contributed anything to this thread apart from digs at other people. Quit it.

@Alf: I shouldn't have allowed your hit at Thur in your first thread to be honest, but in you managed to hit a nerve with people including me regarding the topic of WTO etc. No more direct taunts or taking the piss, seriously.

@ Dog: same for you - we didn't ask for people critisizing the way people debate, if they debate to the best of their ability. STFU or add something usefull to the thread about the subject, not about the people posting.

@All: in all honesty Thur does a good job of moderating these forums regarding the amount of shit they get from people in here. Knock it off and talk/debate things in a gentlemenly manner. You fucking know the rules which are here to try and make this forum semi-respectable - so stop the shit because I don't care who posts it, your causing more work for me and Thur who both mod these forums to the best of our abilities.

 

[dog]

Don't attack the symptoms martin, attack the root of the problem

 

[Martz]

Don't attack the symptoms martin, attack the root of the problem

And dont tell me how to mod P&S, especially not in replies to threads like this.

 

[dog]

Can we rename these forums to PMS instead?

 

[grizz]

and so now we are back at the same old problem these forums have always had, you can say and upset who or what you like so long as you dont upset the landlord or his cronies. i know, i know, its your forum and you can run it how you like, but you wont crush dissent so long as most of the major posters here dislike one or more moderators. or rather dislike the manner in which they present themselves on here, as i would like to make the distinction between that and the real life personal insults which are foolishly (imo) being flung around.

so if you want things to be cool here, you have 2 options as i see it;

1. ban everyone who complains and basically let the forum die.

2. attack the root rather than the symptom. (is there an echo in here?)

having said all that i do agree that this thread has gone out of hand, and i think most of us know why that is, although some either dont or choose not to see it.

 

[Martz]

and so now we are back at the same old problem these forums have always had, you can say and upset who or what you like so long as you dont upset the landlord or his cronies. i know, i know, its your forum and you can run it how you like, but you wont crush dissent so long as most of the major posters here dislike one or more moderators. or rather dislike the manner in which they present themselves on here, as i would like to make the distinction between that and the real life personal insults which are foolishly (imo) being flung around.

Yes we are back to the same situation - having to baby sit P&S. No grizz, you don't know, you don't know, it's isn't my forum at all. I however try and mod this P&S forum taking into consideration that everyone is entitled to their opinion, although we reserve the right not publish posts which contain hatred or extremist points. Now in my opinion, Thur speaks like any politican in the goverment today. Sometimes perceived as opposing whats being said to make if difficult, or playing devils advocate.

I feel I can completely dislocate myself from my own opinions when it comes to moderation. I have very rarely agreed with anything Thur has talked about, I don't play in the same clan or share common interests, I don't even know Thur. Yet Thur is the only person who actually makes an effort to stay (just!) within the guidelines of what should be a style of formal debate.

so if you want things to be cool here, you have 2 options as i see it;

1. ban everyone who complains and basically let the forum die.

2. attack the root rather than the symptom. (is there an echo in here?)

having said all that i do agree that this thread has gone out of hand, and i think most of us know why that is, although some either dont or choose not to see it.

Shouldn't people lose their inability to post if they cannot follow the simple rules? I have had nobody send me a PM regarding anything they have seen written here by Thur or anyone else. I cannot tackle a problem I don't see unless I know about it. I don't see any logs of threads or posting being edited in here by anyone posting a serious opposing opinion for any point. It seems that if you do not think the same as the majority, then you put your next on the line to be singled out and hated.

I see the root of the problem being that the majority of the people who post their opinions in this forums cannot deal with other people having differing opinions, even if they think they are based on bullshit or not - that is their opinion. You don't even have to reply to sometimes post directly, if Thur posts something which goes against what you have said, so what? Thur or I would not edit or delete a post which doesn't fit in with what everyone else thinks.

If you post you agree to X, and Thur doesnt agree with X, whats the problem? Ignore it, ignore thur. Have the debate without someone, ignore all their points and be evasive when addressing these points. If you do have something to say, and you feel the other person is wrong - then prove them wrong. How many times have I said this? And once you've laid you evidence down, people can make their own decisions. Don't try and change anyones mind or make them see sense - because most opinionated people won't if they have too under duress or because they have been pointed out wrong. They will argue till the bitter end.

This thread is different from most because from the very first post it was aimed at Thur - which it shouldn't have been. If Alf was to debate the problems of Fair Trade generally without trolling to get a response from Thur it would have been a lot better. The root of the problem in this thread was the way in which the first post was made.

The root of the problem here, people are saying is Thur.

Not being able to follow simple guide-lines (i.e. P&S rules) to actually get to page 2 of a thread without seeing insults, bashs, digs or "Your thoughts stink" type comments. Theres no need for it, at all, regardless of what anyone says or your mentality.

And grizz I highly value your input into the P&S forums on the rare occasions that you do post - I would like to see you and others like you posting more. There is a great deal I can learn from you and other people. And on a personal level I don't want to miss out on this.

If anything - I wish you showed the same hate towards our current goverment in constructive views; rather than attacking Thurs inherrited right wing views and capitalism nature, which is going to get us nowhere.

 

[Martz]

Any maybe on a more constructive note, please PM me examples of inproper moderation/bullying/ganging up on individuals etc.

- This thread is now completely off topic - so we may as well use it to iron out the problems people are obviously having with Thur and myself.

 

[grizz]

i think thats pretty much fair enough.

id begin by saying that my problem with thur stems mainly from his condescension, and the apparent lack of empathy he has with people less fortunate than himself. i do think that he pushes the rules considerably, admittedly that may often be due to provocation, but not always.

however i can cope with the above, i think the most destructive aspect of thur is he stops a lot of people bothering to post here because they know theyll just get a 10,000 word essay full of facts and figures which often belittles whomever started the post, and often isnt justified.

im an advocate of free speech so it would be ridiculous for me to say that thur cant post how he likes, but im just saying why i think thur does not a good moderator make.

id just like to add that i wish no ill will toward thur, but am just saying things how i see them.

 

[dog]

I have very little to add to this, that I haven't said to your in person today martin... I will write it all down in a post later tonight

 

[Alf Roberts]

Im assuming its ok to post this here cos of the name change to the thread...

This thread is different from most because from the very first post it was aimed at Thur - which it shouldn't have been. If Alf was to debate the problems of Fair Trade generally without trolling to get a response from Thur it would have been a lot better. The root of the problem in this thread was the way in which the first post was made.

The root of the problem here, people are saying is Thur.

Yeah so i had a a little pop at Thur...a political pop i might add. I hold my hand up. With the kind of abrasive political views she has she can hardly be surprised...it comes with the territory. I get called a commy bastard ever now and again but so what...i accept it cos i acknowledge for me also it comes with the territory. What i dont do is throw a wobbly about it.

IMO The problem with Thur is she cant control her temper in these situations. Basically what she does is classic spoiling tactics with a rather nasty dessert thrown in for good measure. She searches for a chink in ur armour, exploits it, then blinds u with science about it. A lot of the science bit is irrelivent but that doesnt matter cos part of the aim is to `muddy the waters'. This part of the procedure is fair game tbh...politicians do it all the time...standard practice if u like. Its the next stage of her `attack' thats causing the problem...the put downs. Not content with undermining `the enemies' statement she then starts the humiliation `phase'...belittling, condesending, obnoxious and sometimes plain damn insulting language is throw at whoever the target is....and all this from a Moderator...the 1 person here that should be above such things. I havent been looking at this forum for long and at first didnt realise that Thuring was a Mod...tbh it never crossed my mind that they could have been a Mod due to their behaviour.

U say that in ur opinion Thuring is doing a good job as the Mod of this forum. No disrespect Martz but i cant see what ur argument is based on. She breaks the `no insulting' rule on a daily basis it seems and doesnt even keep the threads tidy from the chaff posts. Defending such a person with such strong evidence against them will create an air of `cronieism' about the place...and that indeed is what is happening imo. U say so urself that u dont want/have time to keep coming here to sort out messes...surely that tells u that ur Moderator isnt doing their job correctly.

A forum for political issues is always going to be a different beast from the rest. Purely by its nature its going to invoke strong beliefs and feelings. To run such a forum u need Mods with certain qualities that are not so important for other forums. impartiality, intelligence, common sense, manners...these are the qualities that i would look for in a Mod for such a place. The person should also have a decent sense of firm but fair and have the ability to uphold the rules. U cant expect the natives to stick to them when the chiefs treat them with disdain.
I dont know how Thuring got the job of Mod in the 1st place but imo its a pretty poor choice. Yes there is no doubting her intelligence for that is plain to see...but the rest of what is required is sadly knowhere in view. At present she causes more problems than she solves it seems to me.

If u seriously want this forum to succeed then i think there is no alternative but to have a `regime change' with regards to the Moderation of this forum. I realise there is the point about Thuring possibly changer her ways but in all honesty i cant see this as a viable option. U need some1 with an `understanding' to the nature of such a forum and can `deliver' with regards to actually making it work. Failure to have a sound infastructure and the thing will fail...as it is doing now and as ive been told its sadly always been.

 

[dog]

Right, I best enter this debate again, seeing as I have partially been instrumental in it running Off Topic. However I do feel its about time that this issue was properly raised and debated, the issue being Thur's behaviour on this forum, or more accurately, Thur's behaviour on this forum, considering he is a moderator.

Now, before I go any further, let me start by saying this: I know that I can easily come across as a biased, arrogant, argumentative, provocating and obnoxious person, I acknowledge this, yet will do little to change it, I like myself fine the way I am. Also, there is no doubt me and Thur have almost completely opposing views of life, society, politics and the like, I can accept that fine as well, I wouldn't wish for a world without these clash of beliefs, its part of what keeps society vital, and as such is a Good Thing™

However, the issue here is the fact that Thur is a moderator, and as such represents this forum, as the prime moderating power here, the police if you will. As such, a high level of tact, empathy and understanding of other peoples view are paramount imo. Thus has exhibited these very rarely indeed. This forum is bound to raise heated debate, and rightfully so, after all, what we are debating here(or should be) is some of the largest issues in human life, stuff that relates to us all in every day life. Thats also why IMO this forum need a moderator of a higher caliber than say the chitchat forum, or most other forums. Being the judge in a little league football match is not as demanding as judging a national soccer match.

Understand me right here, I have no wish to moderate these forums, I don't want to use the time needed, I don't think I would make a very good moderator and I'd much rather debate here, than having to occationally put on my impartial glasses(also I think I sat on them last friday).

Now, like I have said before, it would be extremely foolish for me try and belittle Thur's intelligence. And I can't off the top of my mind, find instances of bad moderating as such. But I still say he is a bad choice for moderator.

I have never, or very rarely seen Thur acknowledge another person to be right, or the fact represented to be valid, usually the response will be a deafening silence, or use of more arrogant rethoric. The real question is what do you expect from a debate, the way you enter a debate, will decide how you behave yourself in it. If you expect to "win" then thats obviously is gonna reflect on your debating style, and trying to "win" is the way of politicians, and the cause of the politician loathing so evident in western society today. But ideally in my mind, debating is a way to exchange world views, to increase your understanding of other people and what makes them tick, to try and find the essential truths that most of us belief in, and build a common understanding on them.

Yes Thur makes me tick, pisses me off. The arrogance and the immature attempts at making me appear a kneejerk socialist, a commie and what have you not, are simply too low. The fact, that Thur never, ever back downs and admit mistakes, even when they are blatantly obvious. The fact that when Thur enters a debate, it almost always goes way off topic and goes up in flames, issues not on the subject or what have you, tells me there is a problem here, and quite frankly? That problem is Thur. Thur as moderator and debater.

Now, there is NO doubt that people are constantly breaking the rules of this forum, much more frequently than nercesarry at that. And its true this can very easily turn into a ugly witch hunt type thread, that is NOT what I am hoping for tho.

Ideally in my mind, Thur will for once accept other peoples opinion, and step down as moderator. Hopefully a better moderator can be found, tho to be honest I have no good suggestions atm, expect you yourself martin, and I doubt very much you'd like to be alone with the task.

In short:

Do we want this forum to continue to be place where Thur can use his intellectual bullying tactics, or do we want to have constructive debates on political and social issues?

And FYI Thur, I have removed you for now from my ignore list and will attempt to look away from previous behaviour, not because I belief it will change my opinion on this issue, u as moderator of this forum, but because I'd rather not ignore people on this forum... I reckon u don't give a shit tho

Dan

Ps. One thing to consider for all of us, this forum is very different from the rest of the forums, irc, icq, in game, etc. Ideally I think people should think about this, and not consider behaviour in other parts of the uta community when they are debating in here.

 

[BBStr@nge]

I have to say - I agree with Martz that Grizz should post more. He is the only person on here that posts in an informative and objective manner and does not resort to petty one-upmanship. I love this forum and am glad to see an old nobber of a Coro' fan back as well lol.

Thur can be a pain in the arse and does seek to to over-egg the pudding when replying. RSI anyone?

But with the exception of Grizz I think that EVERYONE - and I have to more than hold my hands up here(!), likes to to resort to cutting wittisisms when a point is not being taken on board,agreed with or whatever. Me and the coro fan have had some right ding dongs. Wints don't post any more, mores the pity imo. As for Thur I am as far removed from her P.O.V as possible. But she is entitled to her point of view as well. As for her not being a mod-nah dont be daft-who would we fall out with then?

 

[Martz]

This thread is not closed permanently, I'm thinking that since Thur has obviously not posted all day and everything has been said in this thread, I think it's only fair Thur should be given a chance at this point to reply, if he so decides.

After you have posted Thur please open this thread again, and lets get this issues out of the way once and for all? I don't know of any other better way to handle the situation.

 

[Cutter]

This thread is not closed permanently, I'm thinking that since Thur has obviously not posted all day and everything has been said in this thread, I think it's only fair Thur should be given a chance at this point to reply, if he so decides.

I know, sorry, I was out socialising with my friends and work-mates over the past 2 days. I know it may come as a shock to some, but yes, I do have them.

Where to start. Well, moderating this forum is a bit like drinking from a poisoned chalice. If I modded according to the rules, most of what Alf, Gen76 & Dog have said so far would have been edited out. I imagine that in terms of the rules, I could have in fact closed the threads and handed out a few bans.

I chose not to, partly because I knew that would be counter productive, and partly because, given my character and temperament, I enjoy a good argument as much as anyone else.

From what has been said, no-one has actually got any problem with my modding as such. Rather, the problem seems to be with me personally. Well, I can accept that as going with the territory. cf the last part of BB's post.

To anyone wanting an explanation for my world view: I have worked, and slogged, and paid for everything I have. Myself. My university education included. Neither I nor my parents was born with the proverbial silver spoon in the mouth. I have devoted some 7 years of my life to get to where I am now. Given this, when people persist in trying to paint me as some oppressor capitalist evil person™ then they really can't complain if I say something in my defence. You don't know me, or my circumstances, and have made no effort to speak to me as a person.

So my posts are long. Well, I could do what some others do. I could post trolling 1 line posts repeatedly insulting other people. My posts are long because I try to think about a post before replying. I also try to provide proof.

As far as I know, mods aren't prevented from airing their views.

When I do, the replies I get tend to be much the same as the initial post in the thread - "ya boo sux, j00 is wrong, j00 is evil (but I can't be arsed providing any proof of this)".

I'm quite happy to be nice to others, to understand their views, and to be respectful of them. But then, these things are all two-way streets.

If you tear my posts apart and prove me wrong, and provide proper proof of this, you will find me being nicer and more respectful to you far faster than you might imagine. To date, the people who are complaining most about me have singularly failed to do this.

If y'all want to keep doing nothing more than insulting me at every turn, I can try the other way - simply mod strictly in terms of the rules.

Or, I can resign as a mod, and we can promote Gen, Alf & Dog as mods. Then, I can behave exactly the way they have been to me, and see exactly what their tolerance threshold for all this kind of stuff is. See if they can respond in an "impersonal and aloof and non-reciprocally-insulting" way.

Thread is now open again.