Gay Parents?

[DraizeTrain]

Should gay couples, be them all male or female, be allowed to raise children? Can ppl try to look at it from all angles, including that of the child/children.

This is the web site of 1 such clinic that has just started operating in London http://www.mannotincluded.com/

 

[BBStr@nge]

What a difficult subject to broach.
I feel very split over this issue tbh.
I think that ideally a child should have a Mother and Father-a role model from both genders, a balance if you will.
But then there are plenty of families that have both parents where children have a poor or abusive upbringing.
The argument that if a same-sex couple can provide a child with a loving stable home they should be allowed to have children, is a strong and reasoned one. This particular organisation has unfortunately not aided its cause imo by titling itself "Man Not Included"

From a personal point of view, the idea of same sex parents does not sit well with me - maybe it's my own prejudice that informs this view. I am sure there are many wonderful same sex parents in the world - I just have difficulty agreeing with it. When you have sites like the one DT has posted that appears to delight in the fact that you don't need a man to have a child, it makes me kinda angry.

Bottom line I guess is whats best for the child?
The only kids I know that were bought up by same sex parents were completely messed up-so perhaps I have a narrow view of the subject.

 

[BBStr@nge]

Man not included? They still want men to deposit a load though.
What happens when that child wants to know who Dad was?
There are adults who were a result of AI that are messed up cos they want to know who their Father was.
Yeah men we dont need you-we want to have kids so give us a sample and see-ya. Hrmz no I don't agree.

Q: Can the child of a recipient have access to the identity of the donor?
A: No - this is not possible due to our confidentiality regulations.

 

[Ajax]

ok so while not quite the same i do know someone who mrs left him for another woman, his kids lived with him and visted her every now and then, they soon got used to the idea and are now young adults and perfectly normal and nice kids. I am not keen on test tube babys unless one of the parents cant have kids, babys should be made though an act of love not in a lab.

 

[ProPain]

Don't see this as a real problem.
Of course they must be suitable to raise a child.

What you often see is that gay couples both work.

imo a child especially a young one, should be supervised a lot.
Seeing that there are millions of gay couples in the world who would want a child, it think a lot would be willing to stop working (so no problem there)

from the pov of the child
This is difficult in most countries it is still really hard to talk about such things. Personally i think it will be real hard on a child.

 

[Jay]

I think that two loving parents are the most important thing. If a child can get this from two same sex people so be it.

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by Jay
I think that two loving parents are the most important thing.

Yes but its not everything is it. There is 1 huge factor that can inflict irrepairable damage on a youngster however loving those `parents' can be...and that is the simple fact that they are gay. Children dont see the World as adults do. They dont use reason with regards to homosexuality. For christs sake the term `gay' is used as a sodding insult by kids...we've even got a smilie displaying this for these forums!! Can u imagine the pain & confusion that a youngster would face when suddenly 1 day it smacks them in the face & they realise what situation they are in? Can u begin to understand how embarrassed they would feel? Parents evenings at school, m8s round for tea, even simple phone calls from friends would become nightmares. The children involved would try to hide such things away...and they should never have to deal with that kinda pressure.

The selfishness of the whole thing sickens me tbh. The gays that want to adopt or `create' babies are thinking of noone but themselves. They want to be accepted more and have come up with the `idea' of the `gay family'. The thought that this country is letting children be involved involentarily in this social `experiment' is quite frankly disgusting.

Homophobic? Nah, adults can do what they like imo...but keep the kids out of it. U cant make `regular' families out of `irregular' ppl...and i mean that in the nicest terms.

 

[Mughi]

I would say, what is probably ideal is one male, one female parent, simply as that is the natural means to create a kid.
But, the care of the child is the most important and if two parents of any gender can provide that care, its no big deal.
Kids get embarrassed over all sorts of things, and get bullied for anything and everything. Wearing glasses, being intelligent, being thick, height, weight, colour, being in a different school, having ginger hair, being gay, having one parent ..... having gay parents is no better or worse than any of these.

The gays that want to adopt or `create' babies are thinking of noone but themselves.

I would venture to say that pretty much all potential parents are thinking of noone but themselves. I dont know any parent who said they were doing it for the country, the human population, its always that *they* want a baby. Say its biological clock ticking, human nature, genetic impulses, anything you want, none of these reasons are going to be different based on your sexuality. No worse than IVF treatment for hetero couples, BB has mentioned issues with that, but that is seperate...

As for acceptance. Of course they are looking for acceptance, [edit] BUT [\edit] I dont think for a second that anyone would commit to everything required when you have a child be that time, money, or whatever just to prove a point.

 

[Wintermute]

You dont matter enough for me to waste my time on you.

 

[BBStr@nge]

Being in a Homosexual or Lesbian relationship means that between the two partners, you do not have the ability to reprocreate. End of discussion.
DT may have been a little scathing in the way he put it accross - but I have to agree - I think its called having your cake and eating it. If you r in a same sex couple u cant have kids.

Wintermute I agree with yourself on the point of having basic standards for having children.
If you adopt you are subject to all manner of checks-not so if u just putting to someone:/

There is an overriding PC elment in this debate every time I have had it in real life, why should it be any different for SS couples?- u choose to be in a same sex relationship-u forgoe the ability to reproduce imo.

And looking at the web page further annoys me.
Just see em all lined up with their turkey basters.

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by Mughi
...having gay parents is no better or worse than any of these.

How u can compare having gay parents to something like wearing glasses is simply stunning imo. I'd like to see ur reaction (not really cos it would be awful) say at the age of 10 finding out by accident that u was being raised by a couple of fags that had `bought' u from a clinic cos they `wanted a child'. I use the term `fags' cos thats what the child would see...not homosexuals...or `different ppl'...but fags/benders/lessies/wierdos etc.

Originally posted by Mughi
I would venture to say that pretty much all potential parents are thinking of noone but themselves.

Of course this is true...but hetero couples wouldnt bring shame & embarrassement to any potential children like gay couples undoubtedly would imo.

Originally posted by Mughi
No worse than IVF treatment for hetero couples,

Of course it is! Its completely different. Hetero couples want to be involved in the babies creation...both of them. Gays dont, they just want a child irrespective who at least 50% of the parents are. How responsible is that towards the childs wellbeing?!

`so who is my dad, `mum'?'
`I dunno sweety but i think i can remember the number that was on the side of the jar'

 

[Mughi]

Originally posted by BBStr@nge
Being in a Homosexual or Lesbian relationship means that between the two partners, you do not have the ability to reprocreate. End of discussion.

I would take that a good way towards a very convincing arguement, but what about hetero couples that cant reproduce?

I can see an arguement against IVF as being along the lines of if you cant naturally conceive, then there are reasons (not god/karma/fate reasons, but incompatable DNA, serious biological problems with balance of chemicals in the womb for example) to prevent it happening. And then it stands for any kind of couple who are trying to conceive

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by Wintermute

Homophobic, yes.

I said no...and i know im not homophobic...i just dont think gays make good parents. Plenty of straights dont but gays certainly dont imo.

Originally posted by Wintermute
Without showing a knowledge of hygiene, being of basically decent character, the ability to financially, and emotionally support your spawn, etc. why should you be allowed to fuck up the next generation just because you are straight?

This has got absolutely nothing to do with the original question. Ur talking about an `ideal World' again arnt u...although ur `your spawn' bit is interesting...because of course with gays that issue would be highly debateable (BB's point).

 

[Wintermute]

You dont matter enough for me to waste my time on you.

 

[Mughi]

How u can compare having gay parents to something like wearing glasses is simply stunning imo. I'd like to see ur reaction (not really cos it would be awful) say at the age of 10 finding out by accident that u was being raised by a couple of fags that had `bought' u from a clinic cos they `wanted a child'. I use the term `fags' cos thats what the child would see...not homosexuals...or `different ppl'...but fags/benders/lessies/wierdos etc.

I am sure the kid would be well aware from a VERY early age that some people considered their parents "abnormal" to be polite. There wouldnt be any dawning moment of comprehension that their parents were actually "poofs/faggots/dikes/queers" as any parent in that situation would make sure they were prepared for it.
And again, "buying" a kid from a clinic coz they "want a child" is what happens during IVF for hetero couples. If you are going for an arguement against IVF in general, fine, but otherwise its not much of an arguement.

Of course it is! Its completely different. Hetero couples want to be involved in the babies creation...both of them. Gays dont, they just want a child irrespective who at least 50% of the parents are. How responsible is that towards the childs wellbeing?!

`so who is my dad, `mum'?'
`I dunno sweety but i think i can remember the number that was on the side of the jar'

You think that if it were possible that both parents would still take what was on offer and be grateful? Just like some hetero couples have to?
Again, this is not an arguement against homosexuals having kids, only against IVF. You dont always have both partners capable of donating sperm /eggs, hence we have sperm/egg donors. And whenever the technology advances far enough you can bet that same sex couples *would* have both sets of DNA involved. The reason it doesnt happen now is that it cant. Both partners would want to be involved, but cant.

Of course this is true...but hetero couples wouldnt bring shame & embarrassement to any potential children like gay couples undoubtedly would imo.

ALL parents bring shame and embarrasment to their kids!
So far this is the only arguement that you have made that is against homosexuals having kids, and not just against those who cant naturally have kids. And in my opinion its not enough of a reason to prevent it as I dont think homosexuality is something shameful and embarrassing. In your opinion it is.

 

[Tnega]

Can anyone see the advantage in having two sets of gays marry and have kids?
Ie. one gay man marrys one gay woman and all four partners live together bringing up the kids?
Does it really matter who 'fathers' who?
Or am I off topic with this?

 

[Penny]

I'm also split on this discussion.

Sexuality is not a factor for judging ANYTHING other than sexuality itself.

I agree with this. Personally, I take people as they present themselves to me, whatever their skin colour, gender, sexual preference, nationality, etc... I'm always conscious of the fact one of the worst things you can do is judge someone, especially if you haven't got the first clue about who they are. Therefore, I'm not going to say whether or not a gay person makes a better or worse parent than a straight one. I don't think anyone can say.

I have to agree with the point BB was making about these clinics where you pop in, buy some sperm, and do it yourself. Not just for gay people, but in general. I think everyone has a right to know who their biological parents are and where they come from. It's part of your identity and what makes you you.

In my opinion, a child benefits from having as many loving, caring and responsible people involved in their lives as possible. However, I am still left feeling somewhat uneasy for the child being brought up by homosexuals. Not because I think they will suffer from bad parenting, but because there are so many people in this world full of prejudice or who have a grudge to bear. You could argue that the only way to overcome this is to stand by your beliefs, or nothing will ever change, and you would be right - but at what price for the children involved?

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by Wintermute
Yeah, whatever.
You aint a homophobe, you just spout homophobic comments

...and what drivel u spout at times also. Theres no middle ground with u is there? 1 word against something and in ur eyes that depicts a total anti stance. Grow up idiot.

Originally posted by Wintermute
You didn't post this for a serious debate, you just wanted som vindication for your own itch.

No shit Einstein!! Yeah this subject does wind me up...and when i saw the news item for the `mannotincluded' clinic and who it was aimed at with the male student sperm donators (who are paid) that couldnt give a toss about how many children they could possibly father without actually doing any of the fatherly duties it confirmed some of my worse fears. Its a warped little industry thats duped ppl like u.

 

[Cutter]

Draize ... Winty ... cool it please. This isn't meant to be a "lets see who can insult the other most competition". Try to be nice or I will have to discipline the unruly children!

Moving back on topic: BB's quote from that website about how they won't reveal the father's identity - last I heard there was some law going through either our own or the European parliament to allow just that.

In a sense, I have to agree with Draize & BB. The only way you can get children is with man + woman.

Now, IVF etc for straight couples is a slightly different situation. In a lot of "assisted fertility" cases with hetero couples the guy has a low sperm count, and all that is being done is his sperm being helped along the road to the nice warm house so to speak.

The situation for gay couples is totally different. To be frank, if some bunch of women think all guys are pigs/rapists/usual drivel, then quite frankly they've forgone the right to ask any men for sperm deposits to help them get pregnant.

There are so many kids currently in care waiting for adoption. Whatever the arguments for straight or gay parents, everyone knows that the state is a piss poor parent. If gay couples want children, or infertile straight couples, they should think about adopting a child first...

A child is not simply a designer accessory for two vain adults.

 

[-CrackKing-]

Draize says: I use the term `fags' cos thats what the child would see...not homosexuals...or `different ppl'...but fags/benders/lessies/wierdos etc.

erm not necessarily. Hopefully the child would be brought up with PROPER views on the world and not have some stigmatized jumped-up views on the world as *cough* some *cough* people do.

Just because alot of children are brought up without their own outlook on life, it doesnt mean to say that all are. Most children do just run along with the "in" crowds view. But not all children are that immature and senseless/stupid.