9/11!
- Thread starter Arnet- StoneAge
- Start date
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Hey - turns out IRC is out and something a little more modern has taken it's place... A little thing called Discord!
Join our community @ https://discord.gg/JuaSzXBZrk for a pick-up game, or just to rekindle with fellow community members.
Arnet- StoneAge said:
Excellent. I like you already. Unlike Dog, you seem to be able to cope with people disagreeing with you without having to resort to foul language.
Arnet- StoneAge said:
Heh. Soon as you make some meaty posts, I'll reply in kind. Your posts so far are not exactly dealing with weighty matters in a serious manner - more like "USA is evil - down with USA!"
Hector said:
A truly excellent generalisation, and one that I'm sure sums up wars like WW][ perfectly. </sarcasm>
Hector said:
Go back and read what I've already said. I've already answered your rhetorical question - namely that I'd have found it less cowardly if they'd attacked some US troops etc rather than just slaughtering innocent civillians.
Hector said:
<sarcasm> Nope, I relinquished them so that I could descend to the level of certain other people in these forums and reply to them in the only way they seem capable of understanding, without being distracted by irrelevancies like the fact that I was behaving as an even-handed mod and thus infuriating the little dears even more because I wasn't rising to their (oh so predictable) bait. </sarcasm>
As to Arnet, there is nothing wrong with his views. I was merely pointing out that when he's a little older, his current views will no doubt change. This is called "growing up", "maturing" etc. Stop trying to read insults into everything...
Hector said:
Yes, and ignore Dog too. He keeps saying he's gone/will go/will never post here again, but he just can't stop himself from posting his usual...
I'll say it again:Thuringwethil said:
That was the war that saw the first use of those tactical A- bombs that targeted purely military objectives, right? Why would anyone want to fight a 'fair fight' with a country that didn't do likewise? "I'll raise you 20 quid", "I'll see your 20 quid, burn your house down and slaughter everything you've ever known"
Thuringwethil said:
Aah- and there I was thinking you were frustrated at paying lip service to your responsibilities...
Anyway, I'm sure we don't want to go there.
Since when is the usa responsible for feeding every hungry person in this world?
Just cos they and a lot of other countries went to aghanistan it is a shared reponsibilty. But because you think the usa are facist (BS) or racist (partially right) you blame them. Blame the world blame corrupt governments blame dictators who spend their resources on weapons instead of food.
It is 2 easy to blame the usa for everything that goes wrong, then where are the fingers which should be pointed at russia, great britain , france , china (so called democracy) and so many other countries.
If all countries in the world would be judged on what they did in the past then countries like germany russia japan spain france and so many others should be on your hatelist and somewhere between the usa.
Just cos they and a lot of other countries went to aghanistan it is a shared reponsibilty. But because you think the usa are facist (BS) or racist (partially right) you blame them. Blame the world blame corrupt governments blame dictators who spend their resources on weapons instead of food.
It is 2 easy to blame the usa for everything that goes wrong, then where are the fingers which should be pointed at russia, great britain , france , china (so called democracy) and so many other countries.
If all countries in the world would be judged on what they did in the past then countries like germany russia japan spain france and so many others should be on your hatelist and somewhere between the usa.
Hector said:
Easy to say with hindsight. You were not the leader of a country which found itself attacked out of the blue one morning for no reason whatsoever, with no warning.
You were not fighting an enemy which was refusing to surrender. Where the soldiers of the enemy were committing suicide to kill their opponents. (Stop and think first before replying to that bit). You were not fighting a people who had been so brainwashed by their religio-political leadership that they were prepared to die rather than surrender. You were not fighting a country which you knew fine well would go on fighting to the last bullet, and who would simply re-arm and re-group if you backed off, unless you crushed them utterly first. Oh, and you were not alive during a war in which large scale bombing of civillian populations had become the norm, and which, incidentally, had been initiated by the Axis powers.
I'm not condoning the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, rather I'm trying to put it in context to show that it wasn't simply done on a whim as you seem to be implying.
And you know what? It would never have happened had the Japanese not attacked Pearl Harbour. No-one can really complain about getting punched if they start a fight and all that...
You could argue that Hiroshima & Nagasaki were the reason Nuclear weapons have not been deployed in battle since 1945. I mean, the Americans and Soviets sure had plenty of opportunity to use them over the last 50 years. They didn't. Maybe the sheer horror of Hiroshima & Nagasaki made people realise that here was one Genie which we had better make fucking super sure stayed in the bottle? I mean, until those two bombs were dropped, I don't think anyone, least of all the scientists who created them, fully realised quite what kind of problems radioactive fallout would cause.
Hector said:Aah- and there I was thinking you were frustrated at paying lip service to your responsibilities...
Lol. Missed the sarcasm tags I see? Don't fall into Dog's trap of not reading what I say, mouthing off, and then looking silly to all and sundry. Anyway, you're right. Why keep re-hashing pointless stuff no-one but Dog actually loses sleep over?
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None of us were, Thur. I also wasn't the president of the USA, theThuringwethil said:
Mayor of New York, Osama or anyone else remotely connected with 9/11. And yet we still manage to have opinions.
However, we are talking about civilian casualties- even better- civilian targets. The Japanese took out a US base, the USA took out- what- 180,000 civilians? The Japanese were brainwashed? If we're going to argue propaganda then we'll be here all day. It's either ok to target civilians or it's not. When did we stop and ask another country if they were prepared to play by our rules? And considering the example of Japan what are 'our' rules anyway?
I don't think the Japanese were 'punched back', hence my silly example about a game of poker. They were raised out of the game in the most brutal way possible. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, I'm not saying it was right, I'm saying it's hypocrisy to criticise another country if they seek to cause the most effective damage they can with the resources available to them.
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Thuringwethil said:Lol. Missed the sarcasm tags I see? Don't fall into Dog's trap of not reading what I say, mouthing off, and then looking silly to all and sundry. Anyway, you're right. Why keep re-hashing pointless stuff no-one but Dog actually loses sleep over?
No, I found it amusing that you were so blatantly looking for a bite. Don't worry, I don't think there's too much danger of misconstruing your points, or your motivation.
Thuringwethil said:
Are you talking about the Japanese having no reason, or the 9/11 suicide bombers having no reason?
Both had what they saw as legitimate reasons.
And strangely enough, both were to do with the political and economic stranglehold that the USA held.
Of course you could never accuse the American public of being brainwashed by a religio-political leadership. No course not. The religious right does not brainwash does it?
Have a read of : - Jarhead: A Marine's Chronicle of the Gulf War and
Other Battles by Anthony Swofford
How is the Fundamentalist Christian waffle that the American Marines were fed any different to any other propoganda and spin by another nations leader?
you cant possibly tell me the American Army and public as a whole are not indoctrinated into the Religious right and brainwashed as a nation as soon as they hit the education system.
I think u could quit this growing older stuff. Somehow it only makes u look weak. U try to personally insult me but cannot even hit on something remotely related to for example my knowledge in the matter.
U could try saying something like, when u start reading this or that or yada yada u will realize THIS because of THAT. Instead u act like a fresh teenager resorting to "im more grown up then u". I could lower myself on this ignorant level responding, "im more grown up then u", but im not going to.
Instead im gonna lower me to the level of saying, i think i both have more practical experience, more books and international papers read then u, been in more discussions- in short i HAVE MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE then u.
I have travelled the world several times, been to US on 3 occasions. Last time, 2 years ago i had a 17 000 km roadtrip round the western third of the country. I know USA is not a homogen country, ive seen the citicies, ive lived with families in the suburbs and ive been to the countryside as well.
Apart from this experience i also posses a greater ability then u to draw VALID conclusions. I have so to say a superior DEDUCTIVE CAPABILITY. Facts to back me up is ending up in top for the northern third of sweden in the national math competition, and so on. Currently one of the things i work with is a consultant constructing the math questions for the national test u write if u want to get acess to universitys in sweden- the university test.
To add when i was in school studying to civic engineer i studied in the class with highest grades of all civic engineer classes in sweden and still was best in all theorethical subjects.
OK:
better experience and better ability to draw valid conclusions = u are screwed my little friend!
Arnet
ps.
I am ashamed of this bragging and wouldnt write it if it was something i cared about, i give a shite bout it really. I care much more if i learn a cool trick on skateboard to be honest, but sure i can do those things when i want to, so dont say i cant.
I think u all seem so ignorant when u just say "the world isnt black and white" yada yada and nothing more? Why dont u give me some "grayscale" then? :p
Also, realize that as a matter of fact i POLARIZE my discussion, to provoke u to reply, in other situations i sure dont paint the devil on the door as i did. BUT bear in mind, to get ppl here to even read your posts u have to either insult which im not to found off or say really radical things.
ds.
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Arnet- StoneAge said:
Good point here, excellent artistic work about this "Terror of the Situation" is
"Starship Troopers", book written by R.A. Heinlein and then, very very succesfully adopted for cinema, by Verhoeven.
Yes, news reports here in rich countries are rascistic. But here has talk gone into direction, that You see things rightly, but You have lack of experience. And i still tend to think that way. I think You are intelligent, more than many others, and that You have seen things others haven´t seen. For example i was never in USA, and i would be glad if we can one day chatter on IRC about it, so that You can tell me what have u seen and so on... But some things cannot be learned that way. For example, You thought ppl see news reports are rascistic. Many ppl dont even know meaning of that word, and many other will quarel very lengthy about this word, and so on... And I´ll tell You why. There is not enough understanding in world. People doesn´t understand , simply. And more, people don´t have unified language, not only because of different national languages, but more ever because if, for example I say: "apple" , everyone here will have DIFFERENT understanding of this word. For this reason: Understanding is sum of all experienced voluntary conscious and unconscious actions bound to this object, fruit called apple. Ok, lets take apple it is easier for us to talk about it
i am sure that everyone here ate one tasted one, saw apple tree and so on. But still I can connect in my mind apple also to making alcohol drink, bcoz i experienced how a large group of village people gathers to make huge amounts of it. And some other here never saw that. Therefore our UNDERSTANDING of apples is not the same. But we can speak about it. But read for example thread about God. Everyone has deepl personal opinion which comes out of experience about God, and ppl simply can´t agree on that, and one can not kill another simply because he thinks God has form of Llama. And people are still doing this even today. Good example of GOOD language is scientific language. For example
5 scientists from 5 countries, do not need their spoken language. If they are physicisians, they just speak with formulas. And NO ONE understand that formulas in different way. There is only one way to learn them, through universal scientific language, and when they say "impulse", everyone of them knows excatly what it is, because that impulse thingie is not white in germany, red in afghanistan, or blue in u.s.a, it is simply universal law.
Bu for average ppl truth is somethin subjective, they gain truth through their own understanding of life. And truth about rascism is for them simply always somthin different... One steelworker, doctor, soldier can simply not speak about rascism and not to mention act same according to their moral....
It is so that there exists Subjective and Objective moral in life of unfortunate human beings. Subjective moral changes,for example in middle age redhaired women were burnerd, earth was flat and so on, and we laugh today about it. This is Subjective moral. Every country, city, even every family has his own set of subjective morals... But there is line of truths which humanity learned in long history and they belong to Objective Moral, for example really no country law allows stealing (one of 10 comms). And ppl apply with it.
Ok, then it means that when we speak here with many different morals and understanding, nothing i repeat nothing useful will com out of it, because we haven´t sat together and made clear definitions: "what is what".. what is justice, what is rascism, what is journalism, and then to discuss according to definitions which we understand in the same way. And dont be mad therfore if ppl say somthing different and maybe think the same as You, or when ppl say same thing as you but in reality they never understood what You said
Interesting thread, when you read through the "i'm better then you" and the "you're an asshole but i used "sarcastic" tags so i can say it" remarks 
Most of this ends up in the discussion when a dictator is bad enough to his people and others in the world that intervention is needed... Saddam killed hundreds of thousands (if not millions) during his regime. Although this perception could be in my head because of the media in my country, i'm pretty sure it's safe to say he made a few people "disappear" every now and then...
There are people in Iraq that seemed to like him, but i would like anyone that would put a gun to my head and kill my children if i didn't...I highly doubt that this image of saddam is solely in my head because the media wanted me to think that, but it's the truth...
So lets say saddam was quite a dictator, when is it bad enough to make sure he sodds off? 09-11 was a big blow to america and everyone laughing about it would piss them off, obviously. Then there's the oil, which off course tributes to the interest america would have on kicking saddam.
I don't think we'll ever know how much of which motive will have been included in taking over Iraq but if saddam was a terrific guy, that did nowt wrong to his people and others in the region, and not laugh america in their face when 2500 of their people and a symbol of the american skyline was bombed, america would never have attacked Iraq.
And about the Nuclear bombs, i don't think anyone will ever have the heart to cause such mass destruction to millions of people... and risk being toasted themselves.
Most of this ends up in the discussion when a dictator is bad enough to his people and others in the world that intervention is needed... Saddam killed hundreds of thousands (if not millions) during his regime. Although this perception could be in my head because of the media in my country, i'm pretty sure it's safe to say he made a few people "disappear" every now and then...
There are people in Iraq that seemed to like him, but i would like anyone that would put a gun to my head and kill my children if i didn't...I highly doubt that this image of saddam is solely in my head because the media wanted me to think that, but it's the truth...
So lets say saddam was quite a dictator, when is it bad enough to make sure he sodds off? 09-11 was a big blow to america and everyone laughing about it would piss them off, obviously. Then there's the oil, which off course tributes to the interest america would have on kicking saddam.
I don't think we'll ever know how much of which motive will have been included in taking over Iraq but if saddam was a terrific guy, that did nowt wrong to his people and others in the region, and not laugh america in their face when 2500 of their people and a symbol of the american skyline was bombed, america would never have attacked Iraq.
And about the Nuclear bombs, i don't think anyone will ever have the heart to cause such mass destruction to millions of people... and risk being toasted themselves.
Hector said:
Yep, but don't forget the few intervening years, the atrocities communited by Japanese troops in most of south-east Asia, the vast numbers of Allied troops killed by Japanese soldiers throughout the region etc.
As to Japanese being brainwashed, read any decent history book on the subject - and about their belief in a god-like emperor, (controlled by the military) and how from the word go they had been told of their own innate superiority and how they were going to win the war.
Hector said:
Or rather, it would be if a terrorist organisation constitutes a "country". The Japan/USA thing was two countries in a formally declared state of war against each other within the context of a global war.
Planes hijacked by terrorists and used to kill thousands of innocent civilians is not a valid comparison.
Arnet - StoneAge said:
You know, your bragging about your achievements was a real laugh for me. Cheers! I've had a long day at work and needed it!
But you know, for all your supposed "superior" deductive reasoning capabilities and vast wealth of life experience, you've yet to rise about the level of a show-off teenager. And in spite of your supposed vast travel experience, you still have some quite frighteningly naive/insulting/simplistic views of large numbers of the world's people...
Why is that?
Again, it doesn't sound too far removed from any propaganda machine. Different cultures and politics=different lies. Maybe more effective.Thuringwethil said:
Thuringwethil said:
Well as nice and neat as that is, it still ends up with soldiers and civilians dying by the bucket load. The end result is the same via different methods. You're implying that a 'legitimate' country can do what it wants with impunity. I'm saying that the problem can only be solved when it is accepted that there is a case to be heard out by the international community. In this instance the USA government obviously doesn't want a dialogue that would bring to light some of their less honourable machinations. Unfortunately for them, the longer this drags on, the more apparent it is that we don't know as much as we could do.
I'm not so in terested in the case for the defence, more interested in the truth, the whole truth and nothing but. I don't think we have much to discuss if you insist on throwing facts (which after all can be used any which way as is the wont of politicians the world over) out to support the war. I'm more interested in the human perspective and ultimately the prospect of a humane and working solution. The first step is realising just how we fucked up so badly. Concentrating on their aggression and crimes will never solve anything: its only use is to fuel the machine.