What should be the Western Reaction to Islam?

[Wintermute]

I suspect the situation in Scotland is different, and that's colouring (heh!) my arguments.. I had a couple of mates at Uni who came from Chinese families, but you wouldn't know it until you looked at them.. sit at a table in a bar talking with your eyes shut and you would never know... The same isn't true of the Asian guys my sister knew at school.. despite being 3rd generation, they speak with very strong accents..

I think it has been the view of successive governments that there is no great requirement of change on immigrants, in effect to become "western", and there's always the concern that demanding a degree of conformity is seen as racist...

I personally feel that there isn't anything wrong with acknowledging strengths and weaknesses within our society, and rather than taking an "all cultures are equal" stance for the sake of a quiet life, should state that a culture that embodies the Convention on Human Rights in law, Gender Equality etc. is better than one that doesn't, and something to be strived for.

I don't think there's a problem with requirements immigrants to have a knowledge of the attitudes that we wish to have built into the heart of society..

The issue, I guess, is that these core values aren't present in a great many people whose families have been here for hundreds of generations!!

 

[Mughi]

if it was white fundamentalist cchristians who had the fastest growing religion in the world at this time, would we be so afraid generally?

Personally, yes, I would. Terrifying thought. Crusades, Witch Burnings, Restriction of other peoples human rights if it isnt "biblical" Any fundumental religion growing is a BAD THING, it happens to be Islam now, it was Christianity previously.

 

[BBStr@nge]

Yes I appreciate what you are saying Wints. I supose the point of my bloated 2am post was that until we ourselves make more of an effort to intergrate, no ethnic minority will seek to. It's hard to see that situation changing in the near future imo.
I watched some comedian on the box a few weeks ago talking about the same thing - I wish I could remember who it was - summed it up perfectly. The whole thing about "yeah I've got Black friends, but I dont take my kids over to their neighbourhood if I need a babysitter." He summed up the situation really well. I hope it will come back to me or maybe someone else saw it 2.

With the rise of Islam in the UK, I think there is another issue for young Asian Males - when I was at school, a school that had a very multi-cultural mix, there was a definate pecking order in terms of race and Asians were at the bottom of it:/
White kids tended not to pick on the Black kids because there were some tough Black kids...hmm wonder why.
Black kids tended not to start much with the white kids cos there were more of them.
So everyone picked on the Asian kids who tended to be passive and studious. Btw I am not intending to generalise here, it's just an observation. In the past I think a lot of young Asians have been very passive and have not really stuck up for themselves. A lot of young Asian males are turning to Islam now and embracing the anger and the political nature of it's more radical side - I think they are kicking back. And to an extent I think it's understandable.
I would be interested in other peoples opinions as it's nearly 20 years since I was at school. Maybe things have changed. But you never saw large numbers of Asian males together when I was a kid. White and Black kids yes, but not Asians. I do honestly think that what is happening now is a reactive thing.

 

[BBStr@nge]

Personally, yes, I would. Terrifying thought. Crusades, Witch Burnings, Restriction of other peoples human rights if it isnt "biblical" Any fundumental religion growing is a BAD THING, it happens to be Islam now, it was Christianity previously.

Me too Mughi - shit scared.
We have one in the most powerful office in the world - thats scary!!
But I don't think the fear factor would be the same amongst the general populace.

 

[dog]

woah, loads of valid and interresting points here

Ged strikes a note when he questions the true will and necessity of integration, I think a thing we should also consider is how integrated is it even feasible with very religious people?

Part of my mothers side of the family, are Jehova Witnesses, bunch of nutters the lot of them, let me give you a few examples:

My grandfather sailed for 40 years, in the merchant fleet. Meanwhile my grandmother took care of business and a flock of girls that ended up being 5 total. At some point in his travels, my dad becomes first a born again christian, then a Jehova's. He forces this religion on the family. Now, none of the girls who were big enough to remember the life prior to my grandad came home with religion, but the two youngest are devote Jehova Witnesses, they are married with JW's and their kids are brought up JW's. When my grandmother decided to divorce my granddad donated just under 1.000.000dkr to the local chapel of JW.

Their cultural lifes and identies, are pretty much the same as mine, but the way their religion contort it, mean they live vastly different lifes than mine, and I disagree with vast portions of their morale values, to the extent that I took a well considered decision very early: these people may be genetically my kind, but they are not my family, the values I was taught and embraced directly contrasts alot of theirs.

Religions, especially fanatic / devout monotheistic religions are "teh shit".

And I don't think anyone should necessarily consider all cultures "equal", ofcourse there will be some with values and lessons more accurate and valid in the everyday life of different people, but they should to the extent they don't empose restrictions on others, be allowed equality.

Its when a culture / religion / ideology restricts and empose on others we should worry, in whichever form this happens. Human rights, should not be considered a cultural trait, but a global understanding.

A bit OT but: Am I the only one who see a society increasingly reacting on fear, a fear fed by a media with the eye for the good headliner, all in the name of selling us more advertises? Consider how many advertisements you encounter in a normal day, compared to just 10 years ago? How more massive the ammount of information that is thrust at you? Television, radio, newspapers, web are all struggling for a fixed market and are simplifying a lot of the issues to catch our eyes.

 

[BBStr@nge]

.

A bit OT but: Am I the only one who see a society increasingly reacting on fear, a fear fed by a media with the eye for the good headliner, all in the name of selling us more advertises? Consider how many advertisements you encounter in a normal day, compared to just 10 years ago? How more massive the ammount of information that is thrust at you? Television, radio, newspapers, web are all struggling for a fixed market and are simplifying a lot of the issues to catch our eyes.

Oh a new thread for that particular debate please - one that could run and run......oh, and a particular soapbox favourite of mine....."believing all the lies that they're telling ya.buying all the products that they're selling ya"................new thread new thread!!!


ooh two cracking threads at same time with rational reasoned argument maybe??? Is it because it is christmas???

 

[Ajax]

as most ppl know i live in a small town, at least 97% of the ppl who live here are white so i don't see half the things that city ppl as much and my main source of information about this types of topics is the media, though sayin that we do have some asains etc etc but because its such a small town they act and behave pretty much the same as everyone else. Its only when i visit citys that i can see and understand this whole topic the view of the blacks and asains in citys is very differant to what iam used too, personly i wouldnt have a problem with my kids (if i had any) going to a mixed race school but thats only cos the mix is mainly 95% white/5% other dunno if i would be so sure about this in a big city. Basicly what iam trying to say is that in small towns like here everyone is basicly closer knit anyhow and new commers weather they white black yellow blue purple tend to mix better mainly due to the fact that they have too cos everyone is more set in thier ways and everyone knows everyones else's business.

 

[JACKEL]

and i allways thought that there were loads of stupid people 'ere gg guys

 

[Hector]

Islam represents a young and angry religion, and one that (like christianity) lends itself very easily to extremism.

I honestly feel that how western society handles this issue will be the defining struggle of the next decade... Discuss!

've read and heard a fair bit from others who consider themselves devout muslims that view all these negative manifestations of Islam to be completely against its basic tenets. So there is at least one perspective where the actions of these muslims are as indicative of true Islam as the Holy Wars were to Christianity, ie, complete anathema. I say this because I want to flag a warning with regard to associating Islam with fundamentalism and the crushing of human rights (in Western eyes).

However your closing point is unarguable. I think most people even vaguley aware of their history have seen it coming for years. No pun intended but the gulf in perception has always been much greater between East and West than anything the relationship with the USSR ever brought up.

 

[ProPain]

imo it is all about tolerance and mutual respect.
in a society which is becoming older and older all the time (most of the west european countries for example)
older people tend to be more racist than younger because they never dealt with ethnic minorities in school / work or other activities. I have many muslim friends yet i frown upon a lot of muslims here in my home town, not because i am racist but because i know them and know what they are about. the heroes who insult other people in their own language.

imo there aint no solution but waiting for future generations who know how to speak other languages and appreciate other beliefs.

besides of that i just want to share the most ridiculous thing i heard in 2003
my father in law works for the local goverment here and they have a x-mas get together each year where they tend to get really drunk (the entire government) Now this year they cancelled it , why? Because the muslims who worked there did not want the celebration of a christian holiday like christmas, and our local government decided that we have to respect them and not celebrate it.

imo that is so sad, traditions which get swept aside because a small group of people can not tolerate or appreciate another religion so they seek to ban it

 

[Cutter]

Oh a new thread for that particular debate please - one that could run and run......oh, and a particular soapbox favourite of mine....."believing all the lies that they're telling ya.buying all the products that they're selling ya"................new thread new thread!!!

Yep, just like those RATM concerts with thousands of sheep all raising their hands together and chanting in unison "fuck you I won't do what you tell me". Oh please.

Even funnier was one of the band members being Harvard educated...

 

[Cutter]

besides of that i just want to share the most ridiculous thing i heard in 2003
my father in law works for the local goverment here and they have a x-mas get together each year where they tend to get really drunk (the entire government) Now this year they cancelled it , why? Because the muslims who worked there did not want the celebration of a christian holiday like christmas, and our local government decided that we have to respect them and not celebrate it.

Interesting. That seems to fly straight in the face of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the European Convention of Human rights and so on. Freedom of religious practice etc...

 

[Wintermute]

've read and heard a fair bit from others who consider themselves devout muslims that view all these negative manifestations of Islam to be completely against its basic tenets. So there is at least one perspective where the actions of these muslims are as indicative of true Islam as the Holy Wars were to Christianity, ie, complete anathema. I say this because I want to flag a warning with regard to associating Islam with fundamentalism and the crushing of human rights (in Western eyes.

One of the things that prompted this thread was finding out that this largely isn't true...

first, some very short background: I'm an atheist, however, this wasn't always the case: I was once deeply embroiled into a christian church right on the edge of being a cult. Whilst this isn't something I am proud of (and is possibly my "one big regret"(tm) ) it has given me an insight into "lunatic fringe" christianity.

The basic view of christianity as a passive and loving religion is inherently wrong: much though we don't like to admit it, the gay-bashers, mysoginists and "kill-em-all" brigade camped out in the Texas hills are actually following the christian scriptures.

The modern "fluffy" christianity is all about interpretation, how people feel, and places a higher value on an internal spiritual quest than on killing all infidels... and I think that this is simply a product of age.. the christian religion has had longer to settle down and get over it's bloodlust.. and Islam isn't there yet.

I would suggest that the people who try to cast Islam in a peaceful light are basically the same sorts of people as Calvin and Wesley, trying to find the inner strength to say "the bible isn't absolute"... For a long time, certain passages of christian scripture were ignored, and clergy basically avoided the problematic points until the current day, where the archbishop of canterbury can happily say that large passages of scripture have no relevance to modern life, or were simply reflctions of the human authors..

At the moment, it would be a brave (suicidal) imam indeed who cast the same level of doubt on the Quran, yet the same "kill-em-all" mentality is there, written in black and white.

Here's a page which is particularly good for pulling a lot of the nastier Quran verses together:

What the Quran teaches

 

[Twonko]

Good thread.

IMO, a large part of the Islamic backlash against the predominately Christian West is defensiveness against what is perceived as Western bullying and the imposition of Western values on what have historically been poorer nations. Islam is not the only example of this. I spent some time a few years ago in Mexico and the same is true there though to a lesser extent. Mexico is largely Catholic, so the religious arguements are fewer, but as a poorer nation, they want all the shite stuff the west has to offer, like Macdonalds, baseball caps and convertibles, but they pretty much can't afford them. So they do the only practical thing left and hate it. Even though they want it.

A lot of the current hatred of all things American is somewhat unfounded anyway. Iran have spent decades burning American flags because it is a tradition. It has also become a political tool to many Islamic leaders because there is nothing like a little external unrest to keep the population onside internally. Iranian students are currently rebelling against the Ayatollahs but they have an uphill strugle against the traditional hardliners. Just recently, the USA turned out to help the Iranians after the earthquake and surprised a fair few Iranians by being decent people. Most of the Iranians had never seen an American, but burning the flag was the national pastime. A friend of mine went on a cycling holiday in Iran 3 years ago and made loads of friends and never felt threatened, even in Tehran.

There isn't much doubt that the West and especially the Americans are international bullies. Their policy in Israel is proof of that. A little more understanding and a lot more talking would cause a lot of the quasi-religious differences to evaporate. It's already happening in Ireland. Having said that, I still believe that the American (western) policy against terorism has justification. Gaddaffi got the message it seems. When Iran, the Palestinians and some others do, change is possible. It's surely going to take both sides to back down a little to make a difference though. I sure think there is cause for optimism in the medium term.

 

[Rich]

"Yep, just like those RATM concerts with thousands of sheep all raising their hands together and chanting in unison "fuck you I won't do what you tell me"

i allways thought that was funny ... very pythonesq "fuck you I won't do what you tell me", "were all individuals"















"im not!"

excelent

anyway ... the middle groud of understanding is the easiest to reach its just you have to want to get there .. and as it stands not many people do tbh.

 

[BBStr@nge]

Yeah Rich and Thur, ok so u got me. Kinda hard to argue with it but you have to cling on to some of that Teen angst as your hair gets grey or life becomes boring. And i still dig the sentiment so

Mind you Harvard educated AND still raging? hmmz mebbe some validity in that?

 

[Hector]

Here ya go Wint. In the absence of uta's own Muslim section I asked a relative of mine who converted to Islam a long time ago, and who I trust to be honest, what their view is. I include it in its entirety, make of it what you will. I didn't get a reply regarding specific threats to other religions.

Like any other religion, Islam has its 'fundamentalist interpretation", where the word fundamental has become confused with "basic". A "fundament" is a source - as in a spring that gushes from the rocks, whereas basic is already an interpretation - usually one that lacks any real discrimination. Thereby, in answering your question, the following issues apply:

1. People all over the world, of all types, colours and persuasions - religious and sectarian - feel that the U.S. government (and the U.K.) erred in attacking Iraq - against the will of the U.N. As such, it was an illegal and, therefore, terrorist act. As governments are always assumed to represent the people, such people have, therefore, come to hate Americans - as overly materialistic, degenerate bullies and the British as their lackies.

2 The Koran certainly does propose peace, tolerance, etc. But it also makes provision for "Jihad" (Holy war). All religions have to make use of metaphor, of necessity, and Jihad probably referred originally to war within oneself - as between the Godly and unGodly attributes of ones fragmented personlity. However, opportunities have long been taken to conceive of it as external warfare - notwithstanding the anti-violence of most of the Koran's teachings.

3. The predominant feeling in the Middle East, of any religious persuasion is that the West is greedy, not to be trusted, lacking in compassions and only interested in the oil. This sweeping viewpoint also includes the spoilt, greedy, cruel and hypocritical Kuwaitis (a kingdom created by the British) and Saudi Arabians (a kingdom created by the Americans). As such, although most decent-minded Middle-Easterners do delpore violence, in the case of recent manifestations, they probably tend to feel that the West in getting what it deserves.

 

[Wintermute]

Here ya go Wint. In the absence of uta's own Muslim section I asked a relative of mine who converted to Islam a long time ago, and who I trust to be honest, what their view is. I include it in its entirety, make of it what you will. I didn't get a reply regarding specific threats to other religions.

Well, I have to say, that's pretty much the response I would expect. I don't see any need to attempt to adopt "talking down" pose A: I'm well aware of the enytmological roots of "fundamentalist". Fundmentalist christianty and islam derive more of their meaning from "mentalist" (or, arguably, from "mental" )

As for "answering points" Iraq was not mentioned, nor is it relevant to the original question. I feel that the US made a dramatic mistake in invading Iraq, largely because it brings forward the possible nightmare scenario of another screwed up Islamic theocracy, in the place of a dictatorship... not a great trade off.

The quran does *not* propose peace, or tolerance, just as the christian Bible doesn't. It (the Quran) explicitly instructs muslims to make war on disbelievers wherever they are found (9 v23), forbids any friendship with christian or jew (5 v51), even if it's your own family (so, basically, Hector - your family member is breaking the faith by remaining friendy with you!)

As for the middle east? it's a backwards hole that really wouldn't be of the remotest concern to anyone in the west if it didn't have oil, and I honestly don't give a monkey's ass what they think about us - I do care intimately about what the outlook of people of middle-eastern origin here amongst us think...

And if they feel the same way, what steps we need to take against them to preserve our own freedoms to believe (or not), to dress as we wish, to educate girls and value the female contribution to society, to promote tolerance and equality... not things that the quran places any value on.

 

[Hector]

Well, I have to say, that's pretty much the response I would expect. I don't see any need to attempt to adopt "talking down" pose .

Er...he wasn't. It's my dad and he was simply responding to the question I asked.

PS why haven't you answered my email re match you git?

 

[Wintermute]

on a re-read, I can see that's a little strong.. what I would say instead (rather than going back and editing my post) is that, no, the interpretation of fundamentalist is not the same as "basic", and I see trying to re-define the common meaning of the word to make it sweeter in the same league as Mr Clinton's weaseling over what constitute's sex...

A basic interprtation of Islam would use the Quran itself as interpretation, and ignore the many Haddith that are used as addtional source material: a basic Christianity would focus on the teachings of the gospels, and leave the Paulit books out.

Fundamentalism is more about the attitude to those of other faiths, and on how stictly the tenets should be adhered to.. Fundamental Christianty would be a terrible thing: stoning for adultery, death for saying "no" to your parent, and a countless other horrors.

Fundamental Islam would have a perpetual Jihad against all disbelievers, until there was no faith but islam - even Christianity's great comission isn't that oppressive...