What should be the Western Reaction to Islam?

[Wintermute]

A thorny question, and something that has been very much in the news recently. Given just how wide an arena this one could be, here's some starting material..

Islam represents a young and angry religion, and one that (like christianity) lends itself very easily to extremism. Islam is also, unfortunately, a very isolationist religion: it's not possible, for instance, to marry a non-muslim whilst retaining your faith, and leaving the islamic faith carries a death penalty within sharia law.

The thing is: we have tolerant societies in the west: European nations are generally safe places for homosexuals, atheists, religious and cultural minorities to live. and a great many immigrant populations (such as the chinese) have fully integrated into western culture, whilst retaining aspects of their own culture - witness, for instance, that the favourite food in the UK is chicken korma!

I remember my first experience of overt racism, and surprisingly enough, it wasn't white on black, but rather asian on white: a rather angry young man I met at Uni, pounding on about how disgusting it was that his sister had a white boyfriend, and how he wanted to "sort him out". I heard a worrying trend recently in Glasgow, that more of the incidents of violence against homosexual men are being carried out by young asian men.. with the justification being much more about an "affront to god" than the usual homohobia.

The rise of militant islam within the world political scene is disturbing, as are the states now embracing Sharia law (such as Nigeria). I read an article a few weeks ago about sharia courts being set up as "the true authority" in major UK cities, and of muslims stating that the laws of the UK are "man made, not from god, therefore do not apply to us".

I'm wondering what our response should be.. it's obvious that a great many people do not let faith of any description interfere with their normal lives, and I would hate for anything that was done in law, or in society in general, to have a negative effect on liberal, tolerant muslims when, in fact, it's only the extreme, intolerant ones that are a problem.

Can an open and tolerant society survive in the face of an agressive and intolerant minority who wil use our tolerant laws and the freedom of speech we give them to spread hatred of other groups, and demand changes in law that will remove those basic freedoms from us all?

Should we tolerate the setting up of islamic schools, designed from the start to restrict women's rights to education, and ensure that they don't get any western ideas, such as wanting a career of their own, or feeling they are equal to men?

Is it better to tolerate, and rely on constitutional protections of liberty to prevent dangerous changes to the law, or the approach of someone like Turkey or France better, enforcing a secular society at every step? Did Pym Fortune have the right idea about inward immigration of populations who do not agree with the core values of the society that they are supposedly becoming a part of?

I honestly feel that how western society handles this issue will be the defining struggle of the next decade... Discuss!

 

[apex]

The problem is Ian ...its already too late


We, in Holland, already have more moskees than churches we already have "colored schools" and areas where the police cba to get into because of fear.

In the office we have at least one debate every single day about our problem here with the immigrants from Marocco. A few days ago the girlfriend of a collegue of mine was robbed from her purse...violently. When I go to the city there have been several occasions when I almost had a fight for no reason at all.

For example my girl and me where walking past the V&D (store) and she gets bumped by one guy and almost falls to the ground. Now this guy says
: "kankerhoer kan je niet uitkijken" translated: "Fuckinwhore whatch where youre going..: (but worse.)
now .......kankerhoer is one of those words you just CANT say to a girl and especcially my girl. So I walk up to him asking wtf hes doing and all of a sudden im surrounded by 20 somewhat guys. I didnt back down and nothing happened. But its the fact this guy just says something like that to my girl that really pissed me off.

They seem to have no discipline or moral values. They dont get that from their parents and they don't give a damn either. All other imigrants we have well adapted to the western way of life. Like the ppl from Suriname, Indonesia and China. But these guys I have become to hate with a passion.

To be honest m8 they can all be send back to the mountains where their Berber arses came from. Every extremist in any kind of religion is a threat to me and my free way of living. Thats the way I see it.

 

[apex]

and yes Pim Fortuin was right.

One of the things he said was if you immigrate you have to agree with the ideas and beleives a country has. You can not immigrate in the western society thinking its bad and on the other hand taking benefit of it.

 

[Wintermute]

One of the things he said was if you immigrate you have to agree with the ideas and beleives a country has. You can not immigrate in the western society thinking its bad and on the other hand taking benefit of it.

I think that's the core issue myself.. there have been immigrations for as long as there have been people.. and I have always felt that our society grows stronger by having this positive mixing... It seems however that the current type of migration is different.. whereas previous migrations to the UK (and from what you say, It seems to be the same for the Netherlands) have been keen to become British, the current migrants seem to hold us in utter contempt..

The respect to women thing is something I have seen as well.. when Jen was at university, they had quite a problem with male muslim students using the University's meeting areas for prayers.. these guys were quiet and wary around the guys, but would be incredibly offensive towards the women if they were on their own: at one point, Jenni was even spat on and had something (goodness knows what) said to her..

I don't think that it's too late to make a positive change, though that's perhaps just the eternal optimist in me...

 

[dog]

I think a lot of the issues here are being mixed tbh:

Islam represents a young and angry religion, and one that (like christianity) lends itself very easily to extremism. Islam is also, unfortunately, a very isolationist religion: it's not possible, for instance, to marry a non-muslim whilst retaining your faith, and leaving the islamic faith carries a death penalty within sharia law.

Well, for starters it would be best to not put a = between sharia and islam, take the european lutheraen church and see how that compare to the christian political enviroment in the US of A?

Can an open and tolerant society survive in the face of an agressive and intolerant minority who wil use our tolerant laws and the freedom of speech we give them to spread hatred of other groups, and demand changes in law that will remove those basic freedoms from us all?

Well if it can not, perhaps people don't value these ideas enough? Or the qualities on which it is based need rethinking? I don't think constantly fucking up in the middle east will in any way help the general christian / islamic disparity.

Imo what we have here is that parts of the world that now experience modernization on a massive base comes from near medieval agricultural cultures... This countries are going thru a transistory stage culturally and so far all the western socities have done is treat it as a threat, exploited the natural ressources present and made more of a mess in that last near 1000 years than can ever truely be righted. Does that mean we now in the west have a moral guilt? No, but perhaps its time we learn from history?

We, in Holland, already have more moskees than churches we already have "colored schools" and areas where the police cba to get into because of fear.

Why is that a problem, let me ask you this: how often do you go to church?

For example my girl and me where walking past the V&D (store) and she gets bumped by one guy and almost falls to the ground. Now this guy says
: "kankerhoer kan je niet uitkijken" translated: "Fuckinwhore whatch where youre going..: (but worse.)
now .......kankerhoer is one of those words you just CANT say to a girl and especcially my girl. So I walk up to him asking wtf hes doing and all of a sudden im surrounded by 20 somewhat guys. I didnt back down and nothing happened. But its the fact this guy just says something like that to my girl that really pissed me off.

They seem to have no discipline or moral values. They dont get that from their parents and they don't give a damn either. All other imigrants we have well adapted to the western way of life. Like the ppl from Suriname, Indonesia and China. But these guys I have become to hate with a passion.

One important thing you can observe here in denmark, and I would guess everywhere: If you hear of an violent / criminal incident, it is never mentioned in the persons description if he looks native, but as soon as the person does not, ethnicity is the prime distinguishing fact. That's no wonder, this is partially how the human sight works, it looks for the differences. However I know at least here if you look at national statistics, the criminal statistics doesn't show a overall increase in any ethnic group, tho it can be proven that there is a higher percentage of criminal activity in an area with a large ethnic minority, usually however these areas are ghetto's where immigrants live in social conditions that have always caused crimerates to raise.

I grew up in a rough suburbian patch of cph, the crimes rates as such have actually fallen the last 50 years, but there is a lot of the focus on the crimes here committed by the large ethnic community, is this a problem? Of course any violent crime should be considered worrying, is it a symptom of a ethnic cultural invasion threatening our way of living? I think not

There's a lot more in the previous posts that I would address, but I simply can not be bothered picking out each and every point, I primarily see them as misconceptions

I fear much more, ethnic fears and growing rascism in europe, than I do the presence of islamic minorities.

 

[apex]

Dog m8 im speaking out of experience not about what some newspaper wrote. Its a problem in the Netherlands and that is in the larger cities.

In Rotterdam for example 60 percent isnt dutch. The statistical figures of violent crimes points towards this relatively small group which consists of almost all Antillians or Maroccans.

But im not even talking about crime here. Its the dutch culture and our way of thinking that is being threatened. I know what I see with my own eyes and thats not being racist. Its a matter of fact that the word "rasist" has kept this problem burried deep. If you said something about this matter like 2 years ago you where marked as a rasist. To hell with that. You cant come to this country trying to change it thinking everything we stand for is wrong. No. You come here and adapt thats what we do when immigrating to Canada or Australia. We learn the language and habits and we adapt.

Now the streets of our major cities is filled with people who do not support the western way of thinking who refuse to adapt and dont want to even try to learn the language. I honestly think letting this many people immigrate who cant adapt is a huge problem and I sometimes just cant feel at home in my own city where im riased because of it.

 

[JACKEL]

we as europeans should do fuck all imo let the usa deal with it...its not our problem its iraq's problem..let them judge the geezer

 

[Wintermute]

Yeah, a lot of issues mixed together, not least of all because if you focus on one aspect of the situation, it's very hard to make sensible conclusions...

Personally, I'm not bothered in the slightest about people following an islamic faith that resembles the lutheran brand of christianity in tolerance and rigidity of belief.. the problem is extremism, and yes, Southern Baptist US christianity is just as much of a problem as radical islam...

Except, the UK isn't taking in up to 20,000 Southern baptists set on changing the moral and ethical views of the country each year... and I don't suspect the numbers are that high across the rest of Europe.

I have an extreme problem with religious schools of any creed or colour, and support the ongoing campaigns in the UK to remove existing denominational schools... The appearance of Islamic Schools (currently being debated in Scotland) is, to my mind, a backwards step even if there wasn't an agenda of restricting women's rights, refusing to teach any religious viewpoints other than Islam, and teaching that the society of the host nation is inherently evil..

I do see a bad balance of reporting of criems by ethnic minorities in the UK, but (and it's a big but) the kicker for me isn't the volume of crime, which I doubt is that different from the native population.. It's the nature of the crimes being reported: things like queer bashing, honour killings and beatings... crimes against property are not (imo) as large an issue as crimes of intolerance and bigotry... and there seem to be far more of those sorts of offences being committed within the migrant communities.

 

[dog]

In Rotterdam for example 60 percent isnt dutch. The statistical figures of violent crimes points towards this relatively small group which consists of almost all Antillians or Maroccans.

I sincerely doubt those figures apex, 60 % of the rotterdam population not dutch?

You cant come to this country trying to change it thinking everything we stand for is wrong. No. You come here and adapt thats what we do when immigrating to Canada or Australia. We learn the language and habits and we adapt.

I don't see why not? If they do so within the democratic structure? Why not? You can not exclude your country from one of the huge benefits the 20th century gave man: mobility. Ofcourse, if they act outside that structure, you have a problem, but it was my perception such people get prosecuted and jailed in most western societies?

I simply will not accept the idea that the islamic cultures can't be dealt with within our democratic frameworks as they are, what do you propose? Not allowing refugees into your country? Throwing people who have been born / grown up in your country "home" to a place they can't recall being to? On the grounds of a society in many cases failing in as high a respect in integrating them as did they selfs? Integrating is a twoway thing if its suppossed to be succesfull, and this so called tolerant society still does a lot of paki bashing and the like in the countries I visit regularly anyway(sweden, germany, denmark, uk)

 

[Wintermute]

we as europeans should do fuck all imo let the usa deal with it...its not our problem its iraq's problem..let them judge the geezer

Different Discussion Jackel mate, this is about Islam, not Iraq... although the two are connected in George W's head, I don't think they are related.

 

[JACKEL]

ah sorry

 

[Wintermute]

I don't see why not? If they do so within the democratic structure? Why not? You can not exclude your country from one of the huge benefits the 20th century gave man: mobility.

Hmmm, personally, I don't feel that anyone should be allowed to come into the UK specifically, and the EU in general , unless they have something to bring of value to society (artistic ability, skills, education, etc) and more importantly, adhere to the basic principles of our society: tolerance, equality, the rule of law, democracy...

What do you propose? Not allowing refugees into your country?

as above... yes. I would exclude anyone from entry who would not tolerate other sexuality, faiths or views... and enact an Iron Clad constitution preventing *any* religious tinkering with the law...

I.

 

[dog]

Well you will have to throw the human rights in the bin, in my honest opinion it is every nations duty to help refuges, much as I would hope others would do the same should the situation ever arise in Europe. I don't believe in building a big emigration wall around a country or a continent as forces within the EU do, I believe that removing ourselfs further away and isolating os from different cultures will only help widen the huge cultural and economic gaps in the world, I believe we need to go the other way. Technological and social evolution have always moved this way...

As for hatecrimes, yes it is a concern, but at least I know in denmark, the majority of the ethnically charged crimes involving islamic cultural issues, are "2nd or 3rd generation immigrants", when are they allowed to become native?

 

[JACKEL]

lol me again

i think every1 has the right to give a know how at their religion this can be churhc or prayer what ever..thats why we live in these free country's
BUT like 2 years back that there were young boys from the marocs who thrashed the ceremony bits of what we call the freedom party ( from the second world war) that makes me angry.
ur 'ere ..right..there;'s no need in doing that and calling stuff from their "own" country
i do think its "weird" to talk about it because ive worked with people who ran away from their country's and had it v difficult. and those are the real refugee's

but turn it around would we be welcome in those country's..would we be able to build a church..would we get money from the governtment and every other need..just simply turn it around.

and yes dog 60 percent..ever walked through amsterdam/rotterdam they dont talk dutch..if u wanna buy sth u gotta talk english.

lol i remember walking in stokholm and i HAD tos peak swedish because almost none "wanted" to speak english..they almost walked off when they heared that they had to talk english
ive been in several country's now and its every "bad" but those dutch city's are the true "kings"

 

[JACKEL]

wanted to add more.

its not really those refugees who are giving the problems..its those people from the north of africa...their 100 percent dutch.
but they still talk about their "homecountry" and this and that
and this is wrong and that is wrong, i said it before and ill say it again..u dont have to be 'ere..but i do know 1 thing when they lived 1 year in shit hole's like the marocs they would crawl back..

 

[Wintermute]

Well you will have to throw the human rights in the bin, in my honest opinion it is every nations duty to help refuges.

lol.. yes, it is, but less than 1% of the people who arrive in the UK are legitimate refugees.

Simple facts: The UN Council for Refugees requires any refugee to ask for asylum in the first safe country they land in after leaving their home nation. By definition, only refugees arrive by air can properly claim asylum in the UK... Someone who arrives in the UK from France or the Netherlands is, by definition, a faker.

We have a duty to help refugees, but we don't have a moral or legal obligation to open our borders to everyone!

As for hatecrimes, yes it is a concern, but at least I know in denmark, the majority of the ethnically charged crimes involving islamic cultural issues, are "2nd or 3rd generation immigrants", when are they allowed to become native?

I have heard similar patterns amongst the UK communities: it's the 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants that are the problem.. although, to be honest, I don't think they are ! they are the ones bold enough to carry out offences, and become vocal, but the real problem (again, imo) was the isolationism of the 1st generation immigrants... living amongst the native society, but never really becoming part of it...

 

[dog]

but the real problem (again, imo) was the isolationism of the 1st generation immigrants... living amongst the native society, but never really becoming part of it...

Agreed, and I think to a large extent we have to take responsibility for that, if we as a society are not able to include these people in our cultural diversity, we have a problem no matter which way you turn the argument, maybe we are directing the focus against the symptoms instead of the cause?

No, never, western mentallity and inability to see underlying causes for symptoms? Have a aspirin

 

[-CrackKing-]

I have two Muslim friends. One converted from Hinduism, and one brought up as a Muslim. The one brought up as a Muslim believes the West prejudice against Islam, and all races pick on them. The convert believes that extremists give Islam a bad name, and they are to blame for ill-feeling towards Islam. Who's right? I for sure don't know. There are inconsistencies in every religion, which all the more proves just how 'teh shit' religion is. Oh, and I don't think that because i know 2 muslims I am able to answer the topic question fully, because i can't.... but I am at least able to ask their opinions and hear both sides of the argument. Which incidently, I do. I've been preached at enuff by em ffs

With regards to Holland, well unfortunately you just got some dickheads in your country guys There are enuff dickheads where I come from, hell where I live immigrants are almost certainly the main cause of crime. The main immigration office for the whole of the England/UK is 1 minute walk from where I work @ weekends, and the queues are always fucking huge... 100s upon 100s of people. Doesn't mean they're all bad people, though. The thing is, is that they way life goes, dickheads hang around with dickheads. It's a well known fact that where you work the cocks always congregate with each other. Same goes for people who immigrate, if you come over with a group of people you know, you're probably gonna keep knowing em. If you're all good people, then it's a good thing. If you're all bad people........well..... That's why is could take generations to get rid of the problems. Society(s) form people, race does not form people.

From where I'm standing though, there's plenty of good immigrants who have come here in the past, worked bloody hard, more so than i ever would probably, and must be admired for at least trying. It's only now that every fucker under the sun is trying their luck with trying to get into the country(s). The balance of good/bad is still good imo, just hope the government(s) catch it before it turns bad. Thing is, the only cause of me saying that, is the few who have spoiled it for everyone. The occasional marcocos in Holland/whatever in England, the few which spoil it for all with good intentions. Nobody owns their country, people should be free to imi/emi grate to whereever. But if you make crime or be a dick, then

 

[Rich]

theres a big differnce between refuges and immigrants dont get the two confused
Refugees are people who because they fear for the lives take shelter in another country untill it is safe to return to their own

immigrants are people who move from one country to settle in another ..

i agree with wintermute about adopting the laws and identity of the host country

there are many countrys around the world that have had a large immigrant population which has then become the dominent population and has voted into power imigrant leaders and change the constitution of that country

Fiji has an indiginous Fijian population od 51% and a immigrant Indo-Fijian population of 49% .theres been huge land battles between the native and immigrant population and for a time the native fijian population was underthreat in there own country this has changed now after the recently elected Indo-Fijian leader was unseated in a coup and native fijians claimed land back...the aftermath of this situation from 2000 to 2003 is still going on and there are still land battles and Indo/Native Fijian disbutes going on.

not a great example because of other issues that would require a massive post ... but it is possible for the immigrant population to become the dominent power in a country if the country let it happen.

 

[BBStr@nge]

With regard to people settling in ANY country, I believe that they should contribute to the society in which they settle as many immigrants have done in the UK for decades.
I am not particularly patriotic(cept' for when the footy is on) and given my above statement, am of the belief that the government should allow anyone in.

A contribution to society is not necessarily intergration. Is it necessary for people to become "Westernised" to live in the West? I don't think so.
Whilst we would like to give the impression of being a tolerable and welcoming society, I am not altogether sure that this is the case. Wints' gave the example of Chinese people being fully intergrated into Western culture. I think they are one ethnic group that in my experience have very little to do with other people.
They isolate themselves very succesfully and have very insular communities. I know there are some Chinese people that live near me - they have a takeaway - but thats all I can say/know about them!
How many people do I know that have Chinese friends? Not many- I know a couple of guys through Martial arts, one with a Sister who I would have married if she would have smiled at me - I was informed in no uncertain terms that it would be frowned upon for her to date a white guy - In my experience East Asians ( and I know many Koreans) keep themselves to themselves and appear quite happy to do so. Their distrust of Westerners appears to be equivalent to ours of them.
I think there is a general feeling within our society that still feels any immigrants have to be "westernised" in order to "fit in". We have all heard quotes like " He's alright he don't speak like the others speak, you know, he speaks English" "Why does she have to wear that Sari thing? why can't she dress like us" or the classic "He's Black ya know, yeah..., but he's alright"
We intergrate to a point How many of the white people on here live in predominately Black neighbourhoods? I don't, more to the point wouldn't want to. Housing tends to be poorer, amenities are poorer, general state of the areas tends to be poorer and the schools? well I wouldn't want my kids going there now would I? I apologise for the sarcasm but integration is still a long way off.
I don't believe that anyone truly wants it either - there I said it.
The fact is that whilst other cultures enrich and enhance our lives, we tend to be quite happy with our own thank you very much. I as much as any other liberal white guy likes to think he is non-prejudicial. I would like my children to have a full understanding and a genuine interest and tolerance of other peoples beliefs.
My son goes to a nice middle class school in a nice middle class area - hardly any children from ethnic minorities in the school - where is he going to get that tolerance and understanding from then? Am I going to send him to an inner city school? no probably not. We intergrate to a point.

When I speak to Parents of Black children, as I do regularly at work - If their children are having difficulties within school and I were to suggest a transfer, they wont send their children to a predominately white school mainly because we don't intergrate well. We can all talk a good game but intergration rarely happens.

Sorry may have drifted off topic a little but thats a decent two penn'th for now.

Islam? any fundamentalist religion tends to be devisive and the personification of evil in my experience.
The treatment of women in the Islamic faith is quite abhorrent - In this country and in the news recently - Muslim Girl killed for pulling out of an arranged marriage - by her own brothers. Acid attacks are becoming increasingly common for Muslim girls that date outside of their race. I worked with a Muslim woman for two years some time ago - gave her a lift home maybe three nights out of five - had to drop her off two miles from her house because if she was seen getting out of my car she would be in serious trouble. She was single btw.
Yes it is a young and angry religion I agree Wints. But also have to agree with the point that Dan was making, if it was white fundamentalist cchristians who had the fastest growing religion in the world at this time, would we be so afraid generally? The sort of Fundamentalists who would break their wives legs for her looking at a Black man, only be allowed to wear certain garments etc etc. All fundamentalist religion is sick.
But people do appear to take issue when it's not mainly white devotees.


fs lost me train of thought now 2 l8 - interesting discussion catch up with it tommorow