new order

[fraghag]

well that tears it , Bush has gotten all his boys in place, it looks like we will be going to war after all, not to mention drilling in anwar the repeal of roe vs wade ect, ect. don't get me wrong I have voted republican before. But this is insane ,it's like the country has a bad case of nationalisim. 2 words [ hidden agenda]

 

[SmartAss]

LMFAO

Even tho Repubs have controll they can't do anything major without the help from the Dems. You need 60 votes in the Senate to repeal some thing like roe vs wade and the Repubs only have 51.


We have already passed a bill to allow us to use force on Iraq and this was when the Dems had the Senate.


The Dems lost 'cuz they ran their election on fear of what the Repubs will do if they get in.

 

[fraghag]

good point, u are right one group is just as bad as the other. Oh well America is still the best damn country to live in

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by SmartAss
The Dems lost 'cuz they ran their election on fear of what the Repubs will do if they get in.

Or, put slightly differently, the Democrats lost because, like all left wing movements, they tend to forget that they are/were in power at the behest of the voters/taxpayers. Unfortunately for them, the appeal of less government and lower taxes is only increasing in these days of bloated bureaucracy and sky-high taxes.

And yes, before anyone asks, I'm a conservative/tory

 

[LoneRanger]

and before anyone asks, no, she's not american

anywho, the democrats simply had the people look at more reasons why NOT to elect the republicans rather than why they SHOULD elect democrats.

and i hate all the politicans at this point.. every campaign ad bar maybe 2 are all mudslinging

 

[fraghag]

So lower the taxes and they will come. I guess we are a shallow people, we don't look at the big picture. Let me know when it's over And as for foreign policy ,don't get me started U get the idea.

 

[Cutter]

Yep, lower taxes and people will come: To use the UK as an example:

The politicians implement measures which bugger up everyone else's pension provisions, but then go and vote themselves nice big fat increases to their own pensions. Paid for with taxpayers money.

The politicians criticise the firefighter's demand for a 40% pay increase and "grossly inappropriate" but see nothing wrong with voting themselves 40% pay increases to their (already extremely generous) salarys. Again, paid for with taxpayers money.

Shall I go on? I think its not so much that people mind being taxed, if they can see it is being used for something useful. Unfortunately, most tax hikes only seem to go into the politicians own pockets.

 

[Mr_Bungle]

Please,for christ sake not party politics Thur.

Though i commend you for sticking with the tories even thorough their years of vast hypocrisy,how on earth could you trust that party to lead again?(especially the current mob,oh Ian Duncan-Smith is such a winner,trying to force the party to vote against gay/unmarried couples from adopting children.Such a modernist,cosmapolitan step forward from the soon to be ousted Tory leader)

Gah,now i've gotten talking party politics when i expressly didn't want to.

Anyway the perpetuation of the 2-party system will eventually be our doom.People frothing at the gash over thier preferred lab/dem or tory/rep preferences,it will go on for ever without any real progress.
I feel a real shake up is needed from these 'traditional' lines of thinking.All that history,grass roots support,tradition makes me want to vomit.We need clear headed thinkers,without any 200 year old bias and bones to pick.Without any loyalty to tedious old standards.

Ain't gonna happen tho

 

[Andy]

RE:

just as a side note Tony Blairs wife earns more than any politician

The fire fighters do deserve a pay rise but asking for 40% in one foul swoop was never gonna happen and they knew it

We are all under paid for what we do, specially fixing phones but thats getting off track , big TB doesnt earn so much that its a gross amount, he has monumental responsibilites and should be duely paid so



yes i am a labour voter so shoot me

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by Mr_Bungle

Anyway the perpetuation of the 2-party system will eventually be our doom.People frothing at the gash over thier preferred lab/dem or tory/rep preferences,it will go on for ever without any real progress.
I feel a real shake up is needed from these 'traditional' lines of thinking.All that history,grass roots support,tradition makes me want to vomit.We need clear headed thinkers,without any 200 year old bias and bones to pick.Without any loyalty to tedious old standards.

Ain't gonna happen tho

I seem to remember saying I am a conservsative/tory, not that I would actually laud, support or approve of the current crop. There is a difference. However, given the choice between the current tories and the current labour, I'd sure as hell vote tory.

Lets see now, what's happened since labour came to power:

1. University grants and fees abolished. To think that a supposed labour government did this. And yet not even a murmur of dissent. Now imagine the reaction had the tories tried this...

2. Hospital waiting lists soaring into the stratosphere. People waiting 10 days for X-Ray results. Waiting lists for waiting lists. Until the most recent budget, labour was investing less in real and actual terms than the tories had in the NHS.

3. House of Lords and Judiciary eviscerated, stuffed with labour placemen and made a complete joke of. The executive is now operating free of any kind of democratic check or balance. The only thing holding them in any kind of check now is the financial markets.

4. Your right to a jury trial in England has been abolished.

5. Your right to silence will now be taken as incriminating evidence.

6. The railways. Need I say more?

7. Air traffic control. Need I say more?

8. People who pay their taxes fair and due, and who then wish to provide out of their net, taxed income for a slightly better standard of healthcare or education for their children than the state provides, are demonised as "rich" and "over-privileged elites". Despite the fact that they are not taking anything away from the state services.

9. Vast increase in the number of unaccountable "advisers" paid for out of the public purse, wielding power with no responsibility.

10. After messing up people's private pensions with the abolition of Advanced Corporation tax, ministers then add insult to injury by voting themselves year-on-year 40% pay rises, and vast increases to their own pension provisions (paid for from the public purse) while shortening the number of year required to qualify.

11. I could go on about other things here, but I'll stop for now.

Suffice to say that since labour came to power, we've all become poorer, we have fewer legal rights than under the tories, and a nauseating stalinist centralised approach to control and crushing of dissent has emerged.

And yet no-one speaks out. I don't know about you, but this is not the kind of regime I can support. Maybe you're different...

 

[Gen76]

insignificancies in teh bigger picture of things.wether its british firemen or who controlls what int he US senate.We all know US foreighn policie hasnt really changed much since 1970 regardless of whos prez at the time.

Personaly i beleave that its unavoidable that the US will pull some crap and every1 els will go bonkers and i cant say i would blame em.Wether this is before or after the future US economical melt down 1 can only guess at.hopefully we the rest of the world wont be so totaly under the controll of just 1 foreighn economy and thereby reducing the overall impact.


Marshall help? no fanx, im full.

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by Gen76
insignificancies in teh bigger picture of things.

Glad to see you consider the erosion of your democratic rights, and the wasteing of the tax money you pay as "insignificanies". I don't.

Some might even contend that governments the world over are using the "war on terror" as a great excuse to slip through restrictive and anti-democratic legislation which would not otherwise be approved so readily.

Just food for thought...

 

[Mr_Bungle]

Thur you seem to assume i am a hard bitten Labour supporter,which i'm not.However as i grew up in the 80's i know what kind of damage a Tory government can inflict upon us.

1. University grants and fees abolished. To think that a supposed labour government did this. And yet not even a murmur of dissent. Now imagine the reaction had the tories tried this...

The tories always wanted to do it,and lets face it we were the last country in the world not to pay tutition on higher education.

2. Hospital waiting lists soaring into the stratosphere. People waiting 10 days for X-Ray results. Waiting lists for waiting lists. Until the most recent budget, labour was investing less in real and actual terms than the tories had in the NHS.

Typical tory sophistry,what you actually say means nothing.The NHS rot has been prevailant for decades.Nothing will stop it eventually being replaced or abolished.

3. House of Lords and Judiciary eviscerated, stuffed with labour placemen and made a complete joke of. The executive is now operating free of any kind of democratic check or balance. The only thing holding them in any kind of check now is the financial markets.

The house of Lords is undemocratic,whatever party is in power fills the place with their own peers.Why should a undemocratically elected body have power to veto the house of commons?It shouldn't.Knock the bloody thing down.

6. The railways. Need I say more?

7. Air traffic control. Need I say more?

The culture of privitisation is the baby and brainchild of the tories.You can thank Thatcher that we now have no nationally owned services.

8. People who pay their taxes fair and due, and who then wish to provide out of their net, taxed income for a slightly better standard of healthcare or education for their children than the state provides, are demonised as "rich" and "over-privileged elites". Despite the fact that they are not taking anything away from the state services.

That seems to be more of a opinion of outrage more than anything regarding the countries rule Best of luck to folk if they want private healthcare.

9. Vast increase in the number of unaccountable "advisers" paid for out of the public purse, wielding power with no responsibility.

I agree with you there,people like Alistar Campbell should be paid of the coffers of the labour party.

10. After messing up people's private pensions with the abolition of Advanced Corporation tax, ministers then add insult to injury by voting themselves year-on-year 40% pay rises, and vast increases to their own pension provisions (paid for from the public purse) while shortening the number of year required to qualify.

Agreed again,we better be sorting out our own pensions as the 45 years of NI i will have paid will mean fuck all when i reach 65.If i reach 65


Your points are well wrote and intellegent Thur,however you ruin it with rampant anti-socailist messages like 'nauseating stalinist centralised approach to control'.Tho funny,that kind of thing will just keep us all arguing till the end of time!Make your own path not the agenda laid down by the daily mail ffs

 

[Jay]

I actually dislike most poloticians. They are work shy hypocritical back slapping cronies who dont deserve the positions they have.

Labour came in on a wind of no sleze, the sleze is worse than ever. We are lied to continually and Mr Blair is busier flying the world trying to fix other faults rather than sitting here and helping OUR country get itself sorted.

At the end of the day his vision is more than being prime minister, he is looking to the future when he doesnt have a job.

Yes the firemen are asking for a huge pay rise and I dont actually expect that they thought they would get that much. But, they do deserve more. These people put their lives on the line EVERY day for us folk.

But where will all this extra money from. There is already a massive defecit in the budget, so lets just watch those taxes spiral out of control.

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by Mr_Bungle
Your points are well wrote and intellegent Thur,however you ruin it with rampant anti-socailist messages like 'nauseating stalinist centralised approach to control'.Tho funny,that kind of thing will just keep us all arguing till the end of time!Make your own path not the agenda laid down by the daily mail ffs

Please don't insult my intelligence by calling me a daily mail reader! Good to see we agree on the pensions and advisers things. That only leaves...hum...9 things we can still argue on!

I have no objection to privatisation. I object to the way it is done at present. Before, the idea seemed to be - make these bodies publicly accountable, and subject to competition and market forces.

Now, they seem to be privatised because the current government has run them into the ground and wants shot of a liability they can't pay for any more because half our gross GDP budget goes towards social security.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing wrong with people's pensions being publicly funded, or for benefits to provide a "helping hand" up in hard times, or for the genuinely disabled. What I object to is that it is currently possible to live better on benefits if you claim all you can than working in certain jobs.

And talking of jobs, my view of the "stalinist" centralisation you poke fun at is coloured by my job. Working as a lawyer gives me an insight into exactly what all those boring announcements they try to push through at 1AM to hide them from the press actually mean for your civil rights. And the bottom line is, they are being eroded at a frightening rate just now.

As to stalinist local councils - I guess you've never lived in Scotland and experienced the strangle-hold labour has had on Scottish politics for the last 70 years? The endemic corruption, the regular fiscal scandals, the political back-scratching, blablabla.

As to the House of Lords, I agree with you 100% about unelected members. But think - when labour came to power, we were promised total reform of the lords, and a 100% elected upper chamber. What happened to that? Oh yes, once actually in power, Labour realised being held accountable was actually a bit of an inconvenience, and just stuffed it full of their own placemen. I'm not saying the tories didn't do that either, but my point is still valid.

Anyway, keep going. I'm enjoying arguing with you!

 

[Mr_Bungle]

Sorry about the Daily Mail thing,it was a cheap shot

From the beginning of time all local councils,tory or labour majority have been festooned with corruption.It not just in Scotland.As soon as Jonny-New Mayor realises that he can get whopping backhanders for council contracts,he/she can almost smell that beachouse in Hawai.
My long winded point is that both parties have had terrible county councils.

Privitisation...my main problem with this the really essential services.Power,health,transport.With items this important why the hell should they be subject to competion and market forces?What happens when the inevitable fuck up happens.These services should be safeguarded against any flux in the econmy,not banded about as great investment opportunities.(which they never are )
At least when the services were centralised,the apropriate minister could be hung from the nearest tree when the nuclear core had a meltdown/the 4.45 to london st.pancras crashed into a house that shouldn't of been on the tracks/the hospital had a mass outbrake of legionares disease etc

Social Security is always a hot potato.My liberal side wants only the best for people in bad situations,i want them to be helped the same way i would want to be help if i fell by the wayside.My fascist side wants all the cheats,grabbers,abusive council estate families,car thiefs,young offenders etc to burn in hell for eternity.Its not so much that some of the money i've been earning for 10 years supports the social security,its the enviroment that unemployment creates.My home city, Notts has been transformed into a cesspit by the aforementioned people.
So maybe i agree with you on that,sorta.

Fucking hell, another essay i've written.Now i'm gonna be late for work.My loss of earning demand shall be forwarded to you Thur

 

[-CrackKing-]

u forgot The Dome on ur list, Thur

 

[Gen76]

Glad to see you consider the erosion of your democratic rights, and the wasteing of the tax money you pay as "insignificanies". I don't.

Its like in Norway where they are going to spend a silly amount of money on a new opera house when lets face it, were 5 million ppl and only the stuck up upperclass realy goes to the opera.


But theres bigger things which are more important than taxes and such. i guess i dont need to list some examples.

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by Mr_Bungle
From the beginning of time all local councils,tory or labour majority have been festooned with corruption.It not just in Scotland.As soon as Jonny-New Mayor realises that he can get whopping backhanders for council contracts,he/she can almost smell that beachouse in Hawai.
My long winded point is that both parties have had terrible county councils.

Most of Scotland has had experience of nothing but Labour local Government in decades. SO I can't really agree or disagree with your statement. "Insufficient data for comparison."

Originally posted by Mr_Bungle
Privitisation...my main problem with this the really essential services.Power,health,transport.With items this important why the hell should they be subject to competion and market forces?What happens when the inevitable fuck up happens.These services should be safeguarded against any flux in the econmy,not banded about as great investment opportunities.(which they never are )
At least when the services were centralised,the apropriate minister could be hung from the nearest tree when the nuclear core had a meltdown/the 4.45 to london st.pancras crashed into a house that shouldn't of been on the tracks/the hospital had a mass outbrake of legionares disease etc.

Would that this were the case. Unfortunately, when these services were public, the Government had this nice little "get out of jail free" card called "Crown Immunity". Which basically meant they could behave in the most grossly negligent way in relation to those aforementioned services, and get away with it.

Originally posted by Mr_Bungle
Social Security is always a hot potato.My liberal side wants only the best for people in bad situations,i want them to be helped the same way i would want to be help if i fell by the wayside.My fascist side wants all the cheats,grabbers,abusive council estate families,car thiefs,young offenders etc to burn in hell for eternity.Its not so much that some of the money i've been earning for 10 years supports the social security,its the enviroment that unemployment creates.My home city, Notts has been transformed into a cesspit by the aforementioned people.
So maybe i agree with you on that,sorta..

Only 8 things left to argue with you about. I feel I'm making progress here

Originally posted by Mr_Bungle
Fucking hell, another essay i've written.Now i'm gonna be late for work.My loss of earning demand shall be forwarded to you Thur

And I shall set it off against my fee for my professional opinion, and forward the invoice for the outstanding balance to your good self!

 

[Ajax]

which i shall cliam under legal aid...oh wait i cant anymore