Iraq - A US Soldiers view

[BBStr@nge]

He certainly isn't smart, but money can get you anywhere in this world Pro.
I'll dig up some links m8.
How he stopped thousands of Black and Hispanic ppl voting in Florida. How he rigged the re-count(that he lost). How he ilegally brought in votes from overseas servicemen, after the deadline. There is much much more.

 

[Gen76]

Follow the money ppl, its that simple.

 

[Alf Roberts]

How fucking hypocritical? Your last three threads in this forum where started with links to articles on the Guardian's website, and without any real attempt to start a debate on your half.

Whats hypocritical?...and where in the rules does it say i have to add my own comment?...and come to think of it, where are ur wise comments on the subject rather than posting an irrelevent pop at me?

My point being, I take it you spoke to this Tim Predmore in person did you?? Yeah, didn't think so...

Ur point being u made no point at all.

...so knock me down with a feather if your starter for ten in this thread wasn't journalism either.

Rather than shout ur mouth off about something that u clearly now nothing about, may i suggest u keep it shut till ur in full possession of the facts.

I dont have a problem with reading stuff from journalists...but Spirit does. My initial comment comes across a bit different now doesnt it

 

[Spirit]

I dont have a problem with reading stuff from journalists...but Spirit does.

That's not what I said Alf I have no problem reading stuff from journalism at all and do so on a very regular basis. I actually said I won't form an opinion on a subject based purely on views of said journalists, small but important difference

 

[Alf Roberts]

I don't trust journalists because their job is to sell newspapers not report the truth

 

[Spirit]

Exactly - don't trust them, i.e. won't form an opinion based on what they say

But I still read newspapers and watch the news on TV - still interesting to know whats going on around the world. I just don't make judgements on people or situations based purely on what I read / watch

 

[Alf Roberts]

Exactly - don't trust them, i.e. won't form an opinion based on what they say

U like every1 else forms opinions by reading/watching info from journalists if u like it or not. U have an opinion of Saddam Hussains rule in Iraq do u not? Plenty of comments uve made in this forum suggest that u do. I think its safe to assume uve never met the man or actually lived under his rule so what is ur opinion based on? From what uve seen/read from Journalists. U keep contradicting urself Spirit...stop it, this is getting silly

 

[Spirit]

I'm not contradicting myself at all. Just cos I watch the news doesn't mean I have to form an opinion or make judgements based soley on what I'm hearing.

And not all information I have heard on Sadam is from journalism, there are plenty of other sources of information aside from journalists you know - if you pulled your head out of the Guardian for a few minutes you might notice that yourself as well...

 

[Alf Roberts]

And not all information I have heard on Sadam is from journalism, there are plenty of other sources of information aside from journalists you know - if you pulled your head out of the Guardian for a few minutes you might notice that yourself as well...

Are u saying that uve got access to `sensitive' documents that are out of public circulation? Are these the `other sources' ur talking about? If not then can u explain what ur `other sources' are, thanks.

 

[Spirit]

lol not all information that isn't reported in a newspaper is sensitive. There are plenty of public government reports for a start (although their credibility is obviously a lot less than it used to be), and factual documentaries, which although still have the potential to be biased are a damn site more trustworthy than newspapers written with specific politics and purposes in mind.

There are plenty of independant sources of information that aren't journalists, many people that provide reports and studies who have no reason to lie, but it's quite clear your most trusted source is the guardian

 

[Alf Roberts]

Also i personally highly doubt alternate motivations to remove saddam. The usa has poured 80 billion dollars in iraq, to my knowledge that would not be cheap oil, in fact it would be the most expensive oil that they ever bought.

Maybe they are just really trying to make things better in iraq(prolly cos they really messed up before and it caused a lot of anti american sentiment all over the world). It might sound far fetched but i refuse to believe that the usa just invaded iraq over oil, that can never be the sole reason.

Bechel (Spell?) & Halliburton are 2 infastructure reconstruction companies. Many of their board members including Bush's father have bankrolled Bush junior's campaign to the White House. Reconstruction contracts were signed by these companies before the war actually took place. Also these contracts were not open to tender...in other words noone else was allowed to bid for them. U dont need to be Einstein to see whats happened here. Bush only got the financial backing to run for the Presidency on condition that he delivered a `golden egg'...that egg being Iraq.

 

[Alf Roberts]

There are plenty of public government reports for a start (although their credibility is obviously a lot less than it used to be)

There are plenty of independant sources of information that aren't journalists, many people that provide reports and studies who have no reason to lie

Like Thom Yorke? See! Ur contradicting urself again.

The fact of the matter is Spirit, u cant actually tell us any of these `other sources' cos u cant think of any. All ur `knowledge' has come from journalistic sources or simply ppls opinions....like every1s.

 

[Spirit]

now your just making stuff up No all my knowledge does not come from journalistic sources. As I said I would trust the content of a documentary over a newspaper any day, as I'm sure most people with a small amount of sense would. What do you expect me to do here? Give you a list of the names, titles and presenters of every documentary on Iraq I have watched?! Well I'm sorry but I have over 150 channels on NTL I don't waste my time memorising the schedule. Are you directly calling me a liar saying that you don't think I have actually watched any programs on Iraq?? If so I think you are getting just a tad ahead of yourself there 'Alf'

Reading newspapers is a good thing, but if you're gonna believe everything you read in them then I suggest you take a step back and open your eyes to the real world

 

[Rich]

"Reconstruction contracts were signed by these companies before the war actually took place"
"Also these contracts were not open to tender"

Both those statements are not correct as far as I know
The reconstruction contracts were put to tender after the "official" close of the war (I am basing this on a lengthy debate on Channel 4 news and again the day after on radio 5 live I watched and listened to)
the last part of your post though speculation could be in some way correct because no company outside of the US were allowed to bid for the reconstruction of Iraq some thing that many British construction firms were going mental about which was covered by channel 4 news and then 5 live and no others, (as mentioned on 5 live)
The UK GREAT NEW LABOUR government fighting the cause for British industry yet again... lets see if we can loose anymore fantastic British inventions in the next 4 years! BUT that’s another issue.

As for avenues of information. to quibble about where people gather there information and how or whether it is biased or not is silly, 99.9% of anything reported to us by a 3rd party has a slant on it, some of the Post on here By Alf (who ever you are) Roberts seem to come from the guardian NOT exactly a bastion of un biased views ( which is time and again Thurs argument) I would assume (as you seem to have a passion to some degree of what you post about) that you would also look at other sources than the media to gain information about a subject as im sure Dave does as well. if however you do not then you have chosen to take a biased view, which time and again leads to uninformed "Im right your wrong" bollox due to the inability and knowledge to look further than your own corners perspective.




so lets get back to the topic

 

[Alf Roberts]

now your just making stuff up No all my knowledge does not come from journalistic sources. As I said I would trust the content of a documentary over a newspaper any day, as I'm sure most people with a small amount of sense would. What do you expect me to do here? Give you a list of the names, titles and presenters of every documentary on Iraq I have watched?! Well I'm sorry but I have over 150 channels on NTL I don't waste my time memorising the schedule. Are you directly calling me a liar saying that you don't think I have actually watched any programs on Iraq?? If so I think you are getting just a tad ahead of yourself there 'Alf'

How the fuck do u think they amass the information for TV documentaries?...its all journalism....jesus christ ur unbelievable

 

[Spirit]

no shit but there are different types of journalism and investigative reports for documentaries are a damn site less biased in most cases than newspaper reports that are written specifically to please the intended market and as a sales technique. Anyway that's beside the point, are you really telling me you believe crappy articles in the guardian over documentaries that are usually overflowing with solid evidence such as videos and independant reports - if so then somehow I think it's not me that's unbelievable

Anyway, as Rich says this has gone way OT - his post asks some serious questions of you 'Alf' so maybe you should reply to that instead of bantering with me

 

[Alf Roberts]

"Reconstruction contracts were signed by these companies before the war actually took place"
"Also these contracts were not open to tender"

Both those statements are not correct as far as I know

the last part of your post though speculation could be in some way correct because no company outside of the US were allowed to bid for the reconstruction of Iraq

Thats what `not open to tender' means.

Well i cant specify an exact date when contracts were signed but i had read on more than 1 occasion that this had happened and this was before the conflict actually started. I suppose it imaterial really cos noone else was gonna get a look in anyway.

I would assume (as you seem to have a passion to some degree of what you post about) that you would also look at other sources than the media to gain information about a subject as im sure Dave does as well. if however you do not then you have chosen to take a biased view, which time and again leads to uninformed "Im right your wrong" bollox due to the inability and knowledge to look further than your own corners perspective.

Of course i look at other sources of the media for information...in this World u'd be an idiot not too. FYI i havent `chosen' to dislike the US...i didnt decide 1 day `hey im gonna h8 the US' and then go looking for stories that show them up in a bad light. I detest them cos ive read too many stories of seeing how they fuck every1else up. Yes my view is anti-US and biased...but ive got plenty of data to back up this stance.

 

[Spirit]

but ive got plenty of data to back up this stance.

Really? Why not post some for once

 

[Alf Roberts]

Anyway that's beside the point, are you really telling me you believe crappy articles in the guardian over documentaries that are usually overflowing with solid evidence such as videos and independant reports

No. I form my views from all media types. To not do so leaves u open for accusations of being `blinkered'.

Really? Why not post some for once

This is the kinda post that the admins should be clearing...its a chaff post...adds nothing to the debate and is confrontational. Lets see what happens...

 

[Spirit]

No actually it's a serious and relevant post - all you have posted in this any other threads is a link to a newspaper article which contains only someones opinion with no evidence or data.

You've said you have plenty of data to back up your opinion so I'm asking for you to show us some. I don't think that's either irrelevant or off topic... Maybe it is slightly confrontational but if that's what it takes to get you to actually back up your arguments with evidence then so be it.