Nrg's ban, UTA rules, my opinion.

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Raft^

Raft^

»MayHem«
Nov 20, 2004
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So before hand I'd just like to say I have nothing against either Biebel or NRG and nothing in this post is meant personally!

However I find his 6 month ban somewhat strange and it has been bugging me a little bit, so I am just going to give my opinion on the situation.

Not too long ago I also wrote a post about more or less this ethical/moral grey area in relation to the rules that are applied in the UTA community, and I don't want to repeat myself to much so let's just get to the point quite fast.

We basicly have no ethical/moral lines we can cross in this community when it comes to insults/flaming, except racial related ones. This is imo very strange, but no one cares about what I think so let's skip this bit.
However it just doesn't make sense in general. In UTA everyone has the opportunity to flame/insult another as much as you want and with some very bad stuff f.e. diceases/relatives/family(dead or alive) and this goes unpunished. (exception for PUG channel at times.)

So we could say in UTA it is fine to say "Biebel I hope your entire family dies of cancer" and it would be just another day on the internets.

Now coming to NRG's recent ban, he ofcourse used racial related insults and all of the sudden the adminboard decides this has to be punished with a 6 month ban. Now when reading this you might think what do you want, making racial related insults unpunishable, no ofcourse not.
But I am saying that this is a non-issue in this community. Insults go here day by day, sad but true, and it's not possible to say that racial related insults 'hurt' more than others or w/e. I for one would very much like see someone try and do so incase you might disagree.

So in the case of NRG's ban, taking for granted that they were both flaming eachother with whatever kind of stuff leading to the racial insult, it's doesnt make sense to hand out a ban, especially a 6 (!) month one. Also taking in mind that NRG apologised already and both Biebel and NRG (going by his posts) look mature enough to deal with this situation, and going by just simple logic there is NO reason to ban anyone for insults going by the UTA rules and how they are currently applied.

So reading the replies from various admins in that thread, about how UTA is all about flowers& thebees/loving eachother I find it a bit hypocritical, or is that just me?

In my opinion if Biebel and NRG were able to sort out the situation together by something as simple as an apology and shaking hands on it, the ban should be lifted.

Discuss on or w/e I just had to get this of my mind.
 
Not to mention the unlimited ban for maz because he flamed.
 
doubt that 6 monts is based on only one comment.
It's more that NRG is a controversy character. He had many argues with people and quite a bunch dont like him (not me, never had an issue with him).

But lets get honest: we are living in a hypocritical society with double standards.
You can say whatever you want (even personal), but if you say summin racistic it gets serious.

Actually i dont understand why things like: "You are a fucking english/french/german/whatever" is worse than saying "You love to screw your own mom".

Anyway, agree with you
 
and
DONT FORGET ABOUT MAZ HES BANNED THREE MONTHS ALREADY OVER NOTHING!!!!!! NOTHING I TELL YOU!!!!!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!
 
Hmmm i just read the thread about his ban..
I dislike racists but hmmm in a 1o1 flamewar things can be said and i have heard way worse then what he said... a 6 month ban is totally unacceptable imo. If nrg says these things normally then yes this should be a reason for a ban. Like some ppl do. And uhm i couldnt resist but Brajan! Ur signature is racism! Dutch ppl dont spoil everything!
 
Raft^ said:
So in the case of NRG's ban, taking for granted that they were both flaming eachother with whatever kind of stuff leading to the racial insult, it's doesnt make sense to hand out a ban, especially a 6 (!) month one. Also taking in mind that NRG apologised already and both Biebel and NRG (going by his posts) look mature enough to deal with this situation, and going by just simple logic there is NO reason to ban anyone for insults going by the UTA rules and how they are currently applied.

So reading the replies from various admins in that thread, about how UTA is all about flowers& thebees/loving eachother I find it a bit hypocritical, or is that just me?

In my opinion if Biebel and NRG were able to sort out the situation together by something as simple as an apology and shaking hands on it, the ban should be lifted.
Click to expand...

Bas already explained in NRG's thread that although league rules are aimed at league servers, any incident that happens on a non-league server that is reported will be looked into , and depending on the seriousness of the incident, league admins may decide to give the people involved a league-based penalty.

NRG has had plenty of history throughtout his time in this league (and unfortunately he has more 'bad' points than 'good' ones). Whilst UT is a game, and is to be enjoyed, racism and personal threats don't go down well here, or anywhere else. There is a big difference between "having a laugh" and what NRG did.

From my point of view, I don't care think that getting them two to "make up" is the right thing to do. That is like me saying "Sorry Officer, it won't happen again" when getting caught on camera speeding. The offence has been commited and words won't change anything. Just have to accept the punishment, put it behind you, and move on.

The bit in bold intrigued me. I'd like to know how you know all about how admins deal with incidents seeing as it all happens behind closed doors?

It is so easy to say that the admins have made the wrong decision, or that 6 months is to long, but this thread won't change their minds. People in this league are so quick to judge what admins do without knowing the true facts, but yet aren't prepared to become an admin themselves.

sneez said:
Not to mention the unlimited ban for maz because he flamed.
Click to expand...

Maz did more than flame. He ignored repeated warnings (infractions) and just continued with his keyboard warrior attitude. He made personal threats to the admins (league and forum) and maz deserved everything that has happened to him. If you knew all that happened then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to judge the admin's decisions?
 
it's not the first time nrg resorts to racist remarks as a means to insult/hurt another player. I'm surprised it's gone unpunished for this long to be honest.
 
lets not forget get many ofeensive words are part of the life nowadays...

you hear it at every corner ("son of a bitch"for example is very famous in germany. It seems some people do not know what it means, probably they dont have an own life or enough intelligence to understand what they are saying.


Too bad man ppl talk shit like this cancer shit...My mum died of cancer 3 years ago and probably more mums died this sad way and for those ppl it is even worse when they get offendet with "I hope your mum dies of cancer" or whatever.



One more thing tho. NRG is nice but flames a lot when playing, you would have to ban him every new week since there will always be a stupid comment, which would at the end be a life ban for him when you do this consequently lol...

Change it to 1 month or max 2 months...not even cheaters get punished as hard as this, where is the balance then?


greetz
 
yako said:
Change it to 1 month or max 2 months...not even cheaters get punished as hard as this, where is the balance then?


greetz
Click to expand...
Because if you cheat in a game you cheat in a game, when you shout racist remarks at people over TS/IRC or whatever it's personal and it's not like he "turns off" his views when he quits the game for the evening. It goes way deeper than that and we really should have none of it.
 
I never said the ban is not deserved, but I do think UTA sends a very mixed message here. You can claim that you do an awesome lot of 'work' behind the closed admindoors, but at the end of the day the amount of banthreads can be counted on a single hand. At the very least it can not be corelated to the MASSIVE amount of flaming and insults that happen here. (which are also not a laugh)

However, I didn't start this thread to mock the admin team, so no need to point out how I am not an admin there. I just like to point out that the rules still seem very weird, as there is a big grey blur all over insulting and hardly any action is taken against it (or is there?). While we suddenly have these ethical/moral borders and ban someone for 6 months while it IMO can be compared to most of the common 'talk/chitchat' we see on daily basis when it comes to it being offensive. Therefor giving this a 6 month ban and let the rest just go by and discard it as 'having a laugh' makes no sense to me, and might aswell unban him for that matter, cause at the end of the day being offended here is a non-issue. Or would you suggest that I report everything that offends me and see if action can be taken? Mind you, your inbox will be full fast.

So it's not just this specific situation. I still think we (or just me!) need some clarification here as currently to me the punishing seems very random. That makes it a bit hard to justify the ban also. It's not even relevant wether he deserves a ban or not, it's about how the rules are applied and how this situation is in my eyes not too different than many others.
 
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Rules state no bad conduct, no cheating, nothing is individually listed because quite frankly that would take too long and could be open to abuse. rules state also punishment as deemed fit by admins for the incident.

Quite simply if you are going to be an idiot and say stupid things then make sure the other person isn't going to report it, admins aren't going to monitor everywhere and punish everything they see, they'll usually only act on incidents that they are made aware of.
Personally, some remarks I occasionally see in #utapug are unacceptable to me but nobody is reporting them so I am assuming that I am seeing them out of context as I dont read the whole convo and thats the problem, sometimes you can see a remark and taken on its own its a nono, but with certain people its acceptable chat and that I think makes things like this a grey area.
Unfortunately in this case there is no grey area with what NRG said, it was totally unacceptable. If Biebel wants to accept an apology then that should go to helping with NRG's ban but there is no reason for him to accept it if he doesnt want.


Admins each make an individual decision on a case and then those decisions are averaged, likewise with the punishments put forward.

You'd usually get a warning from admins for insulting
Keep in mind forums, irc and league are run seperately and as such have different rules although there is a degree of overlap
 
I think the grey area about bans marks the difference between personal and impersonal. If I call someone a cnutflap in the middle of a game then that's impersonal and no action can really be taken, including by the player I'm saying it to. It would be hard to even be offended by that since it's so generic and impersonal - how can someone actually be a cnutflap and how can this be used to hurt them? On the other hand, if I call that same person a black / white / brown / yellow / green cnutflap whose mother should die of cancer / AIDS / polio / Saturday night fever there's at least two things in there that are definitely personal. I know the person's race and am trying to use that as a derogative, and I also know the person probably has a mother and that he or she would rather they didn't die.

For me there's a big difference between the two areas. And there are two types of people: the ones who know the difference but choose to step over the line anyway; and the ignorant ones who still haven't given it any thought in their tiny brains and need educated by those who have, particularly in such a small community. Six months might seem excessive (bear in mind we don't know all the facts) but surely when nrg or whoever is banned comes back they'll think twice before they make personal remarks next time. And surely that's a result.

Wall of text, sry.
 
I make it up as I go along.

We don't have an epic 400 page document detailing the rules - because then people use them against the community by saying "Ah haaa! Well the rules say X, Y.. but Z is allowed!"

It's just general common sense, sportsmanship, and ettiquete. These 3 qualities I expect from anybody - and if they lack these then they risk being banned.

As I've said many times before in the defense of the admin team, this isn't a democracy or a mirror of any other civilised society. It's a dictatorship.

And as MyM says, different parts of UTA have different rules and different people running them.

Ultimately I/we don't need any reason to ban people or delete posts, we could make it like russian roulette or randomly fire ban bullets at people from balconies. But we don't - I personally only ban someone when a complain is made and there is visibile evidence; or a person who I respect and trust complains and I have faith that what they are saying is true.

Maz (or whoever it was) was banned for being an annoying little asshole. I'm sure many people think the same of me - and they have the freedom and ability to ban me from all of the sites they run for whatever reason they decide to choose.
 
Naturally we don't list every single insult possible or drown in a massive book of rules, I can understand that Martz. And I also completely agree with the common sense and sportmanship part, I expect this also. I took into account that pug/leaugue has it's own guidelines and so on, so no confusion there.

Surely it's not society also, but on the other hand if we have some set of rules it would be nice if they were to be used somewhat consequent right? :P Either way, it seems like situations will be looked into if reported and that is fair enough for me, but I still wonder how you will 'measure' so to speak how much someone is offended and then take further steps? Something might look minor to you and major to me, that's more the direction I am aiming at. People are not equally offended by some stuff, so this is a bit of a problem? (atleast for me it seems!)

Anyway, I'm quite happy with the replies here, doesn't need to be discussed any further from my part that is. I usually stay out of the flamefights anyway so it'll be ok. If I came across like I was having a go at the rules/admins or w/e that was not the intention so take it easy. ;)
 
Useless said:
Up yours, England head.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna warn you this time, but if you pull this sort of shit again, you're getting an infraction.

So the question is, what shit am I referring too?
A) - Kicking me from {24}, despite keeping other inactive members on roster
B) - Flame that involved another members home land
C) - Posting
D) Kicking me from {24} despite keeping other shorter inactive members hypocrit

:P
 
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