What now iraq?

[dog]

So as even the most uninformed must have realized now, Saddam Hussein was caught. While I don't care much for the coalition forces occupation of iraq, it's really hard not to find it positive that Saddam has been caught and will face trial, in his own country at that(Who'd have thought the US has the sensibility to let this happen instead of draggin him off in a orange jumpsuit).

But what now? Sure there are still pockets of resistance in iraq, and very naturally so, some of those who supports Saddam will probably rethink their position, others will carry on and yet others didn't even support Saddam, but are fighting for other reasons(Noone likes their country occupied by foreigners). The great hope is ofcourse that the Iraqian ppl will now focus all their energies on getting their country back in shape after years of neglect, get a secular democrasy and reenter the modern world.

But am I the only one pessimistic enough to see them declining even further? With the US still there, the pockets of resistance may grow stronger, more loathing of the western aggresors, imperialistic forces occupying homeland. Will we once again see a country turn to medieval fanatic religious rule? They've been there before, which gave Saddam his chance of revolution? Do they have the leaders to lead them "into the light" or will this whole thing, just further the destabilasation of a already messed up neighborhood?

And more importantly, what should be our role? What can we do to help Iraq, what should we do? Is it our responsibility at all and any action we take, doesn't it risk creating even more animosity towards "The western imperialistic bastards"?

 

[Hector]

Not sure there's alight to lead them to. If they WANT a religious leadership then they'll probably end up in the same dictatorship that paranoiacally tortures and subjugates its citizens again. All these people have known is fighting why would they want it to end until each faction has got what it thinks it deserves? Unless they suddenly embrace democracy and eschew their fundamentalism.

The only option I see is the UN's continued presence 'guiding' an approved leadership. Which will, of course, result in continued insurgency.

I don't think finding Father Christmas in his hole will make one bit of positive difference as each group spins it to make the most out of their position.

In conclusion: It's probably still shit.

 

[dog]

I dont think there is any probality about the shittienes... it most certainly will not help that this is still a US fronted operation, with all that follows.

But that doesnt answer the questions, what now? what can we (europe) do to help the situation? Because frankly so far I have yet to see one time where the US actively went in and did something positive in similair situations...

 

[Hector]

The only thing that comes to mind is maybe sending Cliff over to sing "Mary's boy Child". If it doesn't work out then maybe he can be used as a sacrifice to appease them.

It's a plan with no flaws.

 

[Arnet- StoneAge]

Starting to trade with them for instance. Making it possible for them to stabilize there social and health care. What has hurt iraq much more then these wars is of course the economical sanktions.

So firstgive them a couple of billions to compensate for the tradeloss they have had, then next start trading AND dont trade in OIL cause it will make them weak and dependant of the resource. INstead, build fabrics there, buy products from there and sell them products. Give them directed funding to for example schools or health care or social securities in some way.

With all these contributions u should have a demand not like mif or world banc and other simmilar antidemocratical organizations which only breeds hate and terror but more sensible.

Instead of saying, u get your money IF and only if u RUN OUR POLITICS and not those your citizen want one could use different strategies.

For example one could stretch the point that with some liberality in the country the will not only have "gifts" but also more sound and long term investments mad ein their country. Tell them that a democrazy with wroking liberties is the best way to earn money and they might do it, IF THEY WANT.

This is just a few things, i know 100 more put got tired right now, havent eaten breakfast yet neither..

Arnet

 

[dog]

Some very valid ideas here, but also, unfortuanatly they seem very farfetched in todays political climate(or lack thereof).

But there are things we could and should do, as europeans I think we have an obligation to act as a counterpole to the US. Especially the mismanagement that the US is imposing on iraq as we speak. Just look at how they have dealt with the contracts for rebuilding so far, you have to look long and hard to find a more nepotistic approach anywhere. We should most certainly open our doors for trade, we should make sure that the iraqiis aren't too dependant on their oil, tho on the same time, it has to be the engine that get the ball rolling, its their one natural resource, and an ample on at that. However much I abhore the fact that fossile fuels are so widely used still, I see no other way for the iraqiis to rebuilt their country and get a more diversified economy up...

Most importantly of all, is we have to help them built a secular democrasy, especially in a region that is brim full of medieval type religious fanatics, could the one positive thing to come out of this war be, yet another secular society, cuz fuck knows, they need it.

But, tbqh, I fear very much that these thing will not happen, that the western societies will once again be unable to solve the task of helping others help themselfs. I fear that a imperialistic approach(Father knows best) will be used and help further widen the gap between europe and the middle east, to everyones loss.

 

[Sauron]

tbh i dont think a democracy will work, afaik it never has in any other arabic country before. i think there's even a book on this subject by a german islam expert called Peter Scholl-Latour pointing out that democracy isnt compatible with the islamic religion.
On the other hand Iraq has been a very open and progressive country before Saddams dictatorship also due to the fact that they werent as religiously fanatic as for example afghanistan or iran.
maybe if they now do not rely on religion to lead them out of the current situation, they have the chance to establish a working republic or at least some political system thats not patriarchal.

but what definitely needs to be done is throwing all american firms out of the country, they dont really do anythign for the iraqi people, they just secure the oil supply to the US.
also all occupation forces and this american civil director or whatever he's caled have to withdraw and be replaced by UN personel which fullfill a advising role.

to what you said about the US allowing the iraqis to judge Saddam, im not so sure that it makes a great difference. sure putting him into guantanamo bay and shooting him or whatever would have had a strange flavour to it. but on letting an iraqi court, which was installed by the US, judge him is even weirder and has the feel of a show proces to it.