Vivisection

[Plonko]

Yup sure is but you could also say the death of 100 people could be justified if it were to save millions.

I wouldn't really fancy being the one who had to pick which 100 people were going to have do it though.

Volunteers anyone??

 

[Crazy Squirrel]

Yes it is Plonko in a kind of way it is medical research, there are plenty of people out there who are taking amphetamines and listening to loud music, why should aniumals have to suffer for them, we know its bad people won't stop if someone new says its bad. Why not just study these people who are taking em!!

And these tests broke the terms of their licence to test on animals, the government gave them a silly little warning. Any normal person would get done for animal cruelty. They were supposed to be reseaching Huntingdon's Disease!!

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Ezby
if the death of 100 rabbits could save millions of human lives and end suffering for many more, is that justified?

if the number of human lives saved was in the millions, cap the whole damn lot of them!

DEATH TO THE BUNNIES!

 

[DraizeTrain]

Heres a question then...why is human life so above any other species? Cos we say so?

 

[BBStr@nge]

We are supposedly, the most evolved species on the planet.
Top of the food chain and all that.

 

[DraizeTrain]

`Give any1 species too much rope and they'll fuck it up' - Roger Waters

 

[BBStr@nge]

OMG Pink Floyd

We are fucking up tho, right royally 2
I can understand the medical reasons and all.
But it's all a little distasteful. Making Beagles smoke and shit.
We do abuse our position.

 

[Mughi]

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
Heres a question then...why is human life so above any other species? Cos we say so?

because so far no rabbit has joined in on the conversation.
Sounds fairly flippant, but I think that is at the heart of it.
For example, dogs have a certain level of communication with people, you can tell when
a dog is angry, happy, hungry, an it can tell when you are annoyed at it.
But it doesnt tell you its opinion on capital punishment.

Chimps, and primates I do consider as a little different as it has been shown that they
can understand a level of what is "right and wrong" for example, not just pick up some sign language.
And this is the difference, the level of communication and understanding of concepts.

No other animal has acheived what humans have. Wether that is the impressive stuff like
sending a man to the moon, developing theories as to how life evolved,
even playing online games, or the horrific stuff like the systematic destruction of the planet we
are being told we are doing.

So, I kinda suppose that yes, I consider human life is above any other species because we do and can say so.

 

[Spirit]

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
Heres a question then...why is human life so above any other species? Cos we say so?

Exactly, just because they are not in a position to answer back does not mean they don't have rights, feelings and emotions too. I believe what we do is usually called 'abuse of authority'.

 

[LoneRanger]

well, no other species has achieved what we have to our knowledge. seriously, how can you prove that some of those little guys haven't done x amount of experiments? you can't say one species is better than another because its more intelligent. thats like saying a human life is better/worse due to intelligence (somewhat). what haven't most species accomplished? the ability to do overly complicated experiments in an attempt to break the laws of nature? yeesh. they live, they prosper, they have communities.

 

[Wintermute]

Right, two clarifications:

1) Humans are not the most evolved speces on earth, Bacteria are. A bacterium population goes through about 270 BILLION genration cycles in the time a human population goes through ONE.

They adapt faster, have demonstrably survived three global annihilations (the Cambrian event being the key one) and are optimally suited to their environments. they can even survive in deep ocean volcanic vents, at temperatures of several hundreds of degrees.

2) Humans are the most ADVANCED species on the planet. Two key things answer your question for me:

a) "the universal declaration of human rights". no other species acts in an altruistic fashion outwith it's own family group. Humans routinely give money, food, supplies, disaster relief etc etc to other Humans, with which we share *NOTHING* in common other than humanity. No other species does this. In fact, many species have highly evolved marking and scneting mechanisms to ensure tht those "not of our pack" are hunted down and killed on sight.

b) If our studies of evolution show one thing, it's that species who do not adapt, and continually compete have a special name, and that name is *EXTINCT*

Sit still and the other species on this rock will overcome you. and it will be the ones who can adapt fast, like virii and bacteria.

Point in case: We developed a very laid back attitude to pharmaceuitical research in the seventies, believing we had antibiotics that would always work. Twenty years later, MRSA and other show us that's stupid. Now, we have our eyes back on the ball.

It's a clear warning. if we ever stop viewing our reign on this planet as tenuous, and every single inch of this rock as subservient to human needs, then we will have signed our own deth warrant as a species.

 

[DraizeTrain]

We have named ourselves as kings of the World cos we've a much more complex system of communication them any other species...and we assume that everything else is here for our entertainment. They are all dumb where as we have `advanced intelligence'...funny eh, i cant help feel its the wrong words to discribe it.

The planet has been rollin along for billions of years, millions of it with various life forms just `gettin on with it'...then we turn with our latest new toy `intelligence' and in a mear 50 thousand years we fuck it right up.

 

[Wintermute]

wrong DT, the planet hasn't been rolling along for billions of years
just `gettin on with it'

Every living thing on this planet has been striving desperately against every other thing for the enirety of their existance.

and anyway, dont you get sick of this self-effacing, star trek shamanistic mumbo jumbo?

What makes you think that "in a mear 50 thousand years we [have] fuck[ed] it right up." ???

I think we are doing just fine as a species, thanks.

 

[Mughi]

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
We have named ourselves as kings of the World cos we've a much more complex system of communication them any other species...and we assume that everything else is here for our entertainment.

Nope. Definately not. I have completely disagreed with using animals for entertainment in the hunting thread. I see there is a huge difference between killing animals for a laugh and the research that was carried out to make sure sabutamol works to keep me alive.

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
They are all dumb where as we have `advanced intelligence'...funny eh, i cant help feel its the wrong words to discribe it.

Have to agree with Thur in that case, if you feel it is such a terrible thing, dont use any medication, no painkillers, no antihistamines, no nothing. Dont donate to cancer research programs, but increase donations to hospices. These are merely examples of course. But without animal research I would have died a long time ago. As it is simple medication keeps me alive, other people may value animal life over thier own, but I dont. May sound harsh, but its my opinion.

 

[DraizeTrain]

Originally posted by Mughi

Nope. Definately not. I have completely disagreed with using animals for entertainment in the hunting thread. I see there is a huge difference between killing animals for a laugh and the research that was carried out to make sure sabutamol works to keep me alive

Who said anything about animals? I said `everything'...we see `everything' as being there for our entertainment. We over populate, we over farm, we fiddle with everything until we break it.

Originally posted by Wintermute
wrong DT, the planet hasn't been rolling along for billions of years
just `gettin on with it'

Wrong Winter. No species prior to modern man, that we know of anyway, has been raping the planet of all its natural rescources & in such a rapid period of time. We are altering nature far beyond its capacity to repair itself.

Originally posted by Wintermute

What makes you think that "in a mear 50 thousand years we [have] fuck[ed] it right up." ???

I think we are doing just fine as a species, thanks

Well at the current rate we're going, it wont be around in another 50 thousand years...but i sense that ur not bothered too much about that just as long as *we* had a good time. Every species lives for today, i know that...but with our power we could and are causing a lot of damage.

U say that we're striving to maintain our position at the top of the tree. If thats the case, why arn't we preparing for the future. If we're so `special' why arn't we nurturing the planet to be able to sustain our species for as long as possible? Nah, cos we dont give a shit. I think the word is `selfish'.

...and i think we're doing just crap as a species, thanks

 

[BBStr@nge]

FS.
"BB in agreement with DT shock".

And I believe its that shamanistic mumbo-jumbo that will save us Wints.
We don't treat anything on this planet with respect imo.
The "live for now, fuck the consequences" attitude is far too prevalent.

 

[BBStr@nge]

In fact Wintermute - in response I will once again use the words of a man who should have been listened to more when he was alive. You may have seen this in the bottom line of my sig.

"I'm tired of this backslapping"Isn't humanity neat?"bullshit.We're a virus with shoes,okay?That's all we are."
Bill Hicks

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
Wrong Winter. No species prior to modern man, that we know of anyway, has been raping the planet of all its natural rescources & in such a rapid period of time. We are altering nature far beyond its capacity to repair itself.

Hmm. spoken like a true eco-warrior.

Except, we are part of nature, not some weird thing from beyond. Within the lifespan of this planet, all life has nearly been extinguished three times (or so the fossil record suggests) the amount of greenhouse material ejected during the eruption of Mt St Helens was somewhere around forty times what the US puts out in a DECADE.

Our supposed "raping" of the planet makes great headlines. It does't hold up to scrutiny.

Except for one thing. rainforests. we are chopping them down at a hell of a rate. Except all European nations now have re-forestation programs. huge swathes of the scottish highlands are turning into a forest park! The reason we can do this is because we are developed.

Give these developing nations a fair shout at trade without western industry screwing them over, and they wont be clearing the forest, they will be planting new ones!

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
Well at the current rate we're going, it wont be around in another 50 thousand years...

DOOM! DOOM! WE ARE ALL DOOMED!

Lighten up, fs

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
but i sense that ur not bothered too much about that just as long as *we* had a good time. Every species lives for today, i know that...but with our power we could and are causing a lot of damage.

Shows what little you know. please dont put opinions in my mouth, because your Jedi foo-powers can "sense" them.

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
U say that we're striving to maintain our position at the top of the tree. If thats the case, why arn't we preparing for the future. If we're so `special' why arn't we nurturing the planet to be able to sustain our species for as long as possible? Nah, cos we dont give a shit. I think the word is `selfish'.

Two words, Mr negative: "Kyoto Protocol"

Now don't talk shite, and read about what the UN is actually doing about the problems facing humanity, rather than sitting there mourning the whales, and wringing your hands.

Originally posted by DraizeTrain
...and i think we're doing just crap as a species, thanks

Okay, one question: What have *YOU* done to help?

Do you recycle your waste? Use recycled materials when you can?
Do you buy fair rade goods? Write to your MP on world trade matters?

Seeing as the rest of us are so shite and selfish and all.

 

[Mughi]

Originally posted by DraizeTrain

Who said anything about animals? I said `everything'...we see `everything' as being there for our entertainment. We over populate, we over farm, we fiddle with everything until we break it.

The thread is about the rights and wrongs of vivisection, thats where the animal bit came in
The "other" thread is about human use and abuse of the planet. I havent posted about over population etc etc etc there as I have no firm views on it.

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by BBStr@nge
FS. "BB in agreement with DT shock".

And I believe its that shamanistic mumbo-jumbo that will save us Wints.
We don't treat anything on this planet with respect imo.
The "live for now, fuck the consequences" attitude is far too prevalent.

Thankfully, those in power give a little more credence to these issues than yer typical SKy Sports veiwer.

Don't get me wrong. My atitude is not "all is rosy, what you complaining about", but at the end of the day, I don't want to live in a mud hut in a commune somewhere.

Picture this:
Cheap, reliable solar power: no fossil fuel burning, adundant energy for all, telecommuting replacing any travel to work that can be replaced that way.

That was an absolute Pipe DREAM in the sixties, as far away as the moon.

Now, thanks to the efforts of the self same companies that enviro's love to bash, cheap all pervasive solar power is within a decade.

Science, Technology, and a population willing to do their own part will save us. Staring at our navels in contemplation bemoaning "Mother Earth"will do precisely dick.