UTA survey! Rate the US

[endgegner]

They protected from stalin only a half of europe if u dont know and i agree with McNeill. Btw ww2 was almost 100 years ago and imo nothing changed and usa cares only about self interests.

Well, USA was smart enough to protect the better parts of Europe... and WWII was really not a glorious moment for the USA, major corporations profited while people really didn't make good wages at home, and US corporations were the biggest financial proponents of Hitler... Ford, Coca Cola (hi Fanta), Goodyear... the list is enormous but when it boils down to it US corporations made Hitler's tanks (better than they made US tanks...) and fed and entertained Nazi's just for proift.


The real problem with the USA isn't the politics or the people, it's the system which exists in the country and the notion that profit is always greater than people.

 

[McNeill]

Europe as a whole has a far more checkered history than the US and some of you really should read some modern history before posting bollox.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_the_US_enter_World_War_2

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee

Can't be bothered linking more, fact is even if they provided 'well needed resources' thier support only came after a direct threat to them, I.E japan bombing of pearl harbour and germany declaring war in 1941 on USA. If they had entered when churchill gave head of threat allot less people would have died.

So, I still maintain, self interests > general good.

 

[Rich]

fact is even if they provided 'well needed resources' thier support only came after a direct threat to them, I.E japan bombing of pearl harbor and germany declaring war in 1941 on USA

They were supporting us before pearl harbor through the 'lend lease" program and they were already sinking german ships, its one of the reasons Germany declared war upon them.

US airmen were fighting with the RAF and the US were working with the intelligence services long before pearl harbor.

as for self interest the big US companies of the time were trading with Germany so it wasn't exactly in their interests to help us.

I have no doubt there was a degree of political self interest in helping us as thats the way the political world works but the people, the men who gave their lives did so with bravery not with self interest at heart.

 

[endgegner]

Roosevelt was looking for a way to get into the war in Europe anyways... it would have been incredibly profitable to US corporations. Pearl Harbor was merely an excuse to go forward with plans and interests previously declared. However, the American public didn't want war (for obvious reasons) until Peal Harbor so US support wasn't that it was at the end of the war.

 

[Humph]

Over the past 20 years:
Politically negative, technologically positive - simple as that.

 

[«)Fîrë$±ørm(»]

Sounds like you're a real red-blooded American

not at all - u shouldnt get me started on that
theres so much i really do hate about the US esp not standing up for their obvious failures on humanity. for instance, agent orange, slavery, native americans, segregation. as far i know most of these mess-ups have never been admitted on the highest levels, only mistakes implicated.
in vietnam millions of ppl still suffer from agent organge, and the US denys any responsibilities, not even thinking about reparations. etc etc...

@mcneill:
no matter how u look at it... it is positive not having hitler- or soviet-law across europe right now - and thats one of the main achievements of US policies, regardless if it happened in self interest or not.

 

[endgegner]

not at all - u shouldnt get me started on that
theres so much i really do hate about the US esp not standing up for their obvious failures on humanity. for instance, agent orange, slavery, native americans, segregation. as far i know most of these mess-ups have never been admitted on the highest levels, only mistakes implicated.
in vietnam millions of ppl still suffer from agent organge, and the US denys any responsibilities, not even thinking about reparations. etc etc...

Has any major world power ever admitted to genocide? (other than Germany... dont think they had much of a choice) Sadly, that's just not the way the world works. Turkey isn't going to suddenly say "yes we killed 200,000 Kurds for no real reason, whoops." and Russia isn't going to say "yeah so it turns out the Chechnyans aren't terrorists"

 

[Bart]

Soo, where are the polls for the other nations?

Seeing where this thread leads, i guess we shouldnt dare making threads about other nations.

(...) so their war machinary was already working at full scale.(...)

Spoiler

They were? Heard another version.

At the time as Germany invaded Russia, the russian empire wasn't ready at all.
They had a huge lag of military organisation and material. So the first months was easy going for the german army.
Although intelligence warned Stalin of an invasion weeks ago, he didnt react.
He only raised the amount of untrained soldiers and outdated tanks.
And as he heard that Nazis attacked his country, he was shocked and couldnt believe that at first.

In the following staticstic you can see hoe much soviets suffered caused by the lack of organisation:
22.6.1941
Germans: Soldiers: about 3 millions
Soviets: Soldiers: about 5.7 millions.

died or missing people till 31.12.1941
Germans: about 200.000
Soviets: about 2.600.000

injured people till 31.12.1941
Germans: 615.000
Soviets: 1.300.000

(Source: german Wikipedia)

now seriously, what in the world could have the US been doing about occupation of the rest of europe? start another world war just after the second was over?

Spoiler

Interesting and still a current question.
Ofc it was good that they didn't, because we wouldnt be here then

Unfortunally that means that every big nation can do whatever the fuck they want.
i.e. China can start a genocide in tibet, and the western world don't even think about an olympia-boykott or a trading blockade.

Only because they are afraid of military power and especially of profits.
China is the hugest market and every western firm is looking forward to get their foot into the chinese door.
Capitalismn rules the world today and that's what many people making sad. It's not about humity or rights, it's about cashflow.

I have no doubt there was a degree of political self interest in helping us as thats the way the political world works but the people, the men who gave their lives did so with bravery not with self interest at heart

Spoiler

check.
But i guess most people don't refer to simple soldiers, they refer to the leaders and administration.

sidenote:
Saw an interesting documentary about soliders in iraq.
There was a poor guy who lost his two legs and one arm by a mine and he still said:
"If i had the chance, i would do that (=going as soldier into Iraq) again, i didn't regret it ,although i lost my limbs"
You can see how soldiers are manipulated, so they say such a bollox.

Has any major world power ever admitted to genocide?

Spoiler

Imo it has summin to do with losing/winning.

Someone once said:
It doesnt matter what you do, aslong you are in the winning team.

And that's true.
i.e. Stalin itself was as bad as Hitler was.
He did genocide too, didn't care about his own people, killed his political enemies, was an dictator, decided to assimilate countries, was corrupt and a criminal, but in many minds he's way better rated than Hitler is.
Why? Because he didn't lose.

 

[deadly]

Stop posting stuff from wikipedia, its as reliable as smants mother ffs. Anyway, useless discussion, most dicisions made on worldlevel are made behind closed doors. There's alot more behind all the visible politics that we can talk about.

 

[«)Fîrë$±ørm(»]

They were? Heard another version.

At the time as Germany invaded Russia, the russian empire wasn't ready at all.
They had a huge lag of military organisation and material. So the first months was easy going for the german army.
Although intelligence warned Stalin of an invasion weeks ago, he didnt react.
He only raised the amount of untrained soldiers and outdated tanks.
And as he heard that Nazis attacked his country, he was shocked and couldnt believe that at first.

In the following staticstic you can see hoe much soviets suffered caused by the lack of organisation:
22.6.1941
Germans: Soldiers: about 3 millions
Soviets: Soldiers: about 5.7 millions.

(im familiar with over 4 million axis)

yes it wasnt ready - but it was making huge progress. to me its a postwar soviet propaganda that stalin's intentions were all peaceful which i strongly disagree.

how come that stalin had such tremendous military output before the war?
------------1939 // begin of invasion // increase %
Personnel 2,485,000 // 5,774,000 // 132.4
Guns and mortars 55,800 // 117,600 // 110.7
Tanks 21,100 // 25,700 // 21.8
Aircraft 7,700 // 18,700 // 142.8
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

its a fact that in the early weeks the axis overran russian artillery positions that werent fortified at all. it is also true that the russians had the T-34 in their arsenal, at that time the most modern tank in the world. in fact, the germans were shocked to find out that their tanks were inferior. lateron (~1942/43), german armor was superior.
after the crisis of 1929 stalin predicted a war between the industrialized nations which he wanted to exploit when the USSR was ready.
another point: i agree to u when u say stalin was completely surprised by the german attack - why in the world would increase military by such amounts? even at the beginning the soviets outnumbered the axis by material many times over.

 

[endgegner]

Stop posting stuff from wikipedia, its as reliable as smants mother ffs. Anyway, useless discussion, most dicisions made on worldlevel are made behind closed doors. There's alot more behind all the visible politics that we can talk about.

 

[«)Fîrë$±ørm(»]

Has any major world power ever admitted to genocide? (other than Germany... dont think they had much of a choice) Sadly, that's just not the way the world works. Turkey isn't going to suddenly say "yes we killed 200,000 Kurds for no real reason, whoops." and Russia isn't going to say "yeah so it turns out the Chechnyans aren't terrorists"

sry missed that post... sadly, u re absolutely right.
on the other hand, those nations u re listing aint trying to teach "values" to the world.

 

[Gen76]

Its a young nation

Not really, we're older than Germany/Italy.


I ment as a people, not as a nation.Norways current constitution is from 1814, but weve been around a tad longer than that. :vikingsmileyhere:

It might seem a minor point. But i think it goes to the heart of the common social mindset ie y we as a people hold the views we do. Generations of cumulated experience temper and shapes our actions.

 

[IceDragon]

warmongerers

but also some nice things...

 

[Twonko]

Now that I have Google Earth, what is the point of America?