Israels plans

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I never understood the alliance between Israel and especially the United States. They get every weapon they ask for from the U.S. Government, even the most powerfull ones. The ones they want to use against Iran are bunkerbusters, highly developed weapons that not many countries have. The strange thing is, Israel gets them all for free???!!!!! that's insane. If u do not want to start a war against your neighbouring countries, then don't provocate them by supplying yourself with the most advanced and deadliest weapons. Of course the other countries like Iran will feel threatened and want the defend themselves with similar weapons.

But it goes further. Countries like Jordan, Saoudi Arabia, Egypt, Libanon also get free weapons from the U.S.: a yearly amount of bombs, tanks and weapons worth several billions of dollars. Except they do not get the most advanced bombs.
Yea Great going U.S. If you want to keep peace in the middle east supply every single country there with free weapons and bombs and u can be sure it will be a save place :rolleyes: :barf:

And Why? Just to sustain your own weapon industry.

Usual disclaimers: all opinions my own, void where prohibited, etc.

Bit simplistic, but not exactly wrong imo.

The reason Israel gets so much "free" help is because there are a lot of Jewish Senators in the American congress, who collectively wield a lot of political power. That's why the US so rarely chastises Israel. Its the same with the Irish (or Irish descended) Senators in the US senate, who are another powerful group. That's why they continually block the extradition of IRA terrorists to the UK. It's called "looking after your own".

The other reason for such large US support for Israel is due to official US foreign policy, which is (supposedly) "pro democracy". For all its faults, Israel is one of the few (the only?) true democratic states in the "middle east". Whatever its faults, Israel at least allows its citizens to vote for their leaders and vote them back out again. Now look at its immediate neighbours and their systems of government:-

Saudi Arabia - absolute rule by a royal family. i.e. Monarchy. i.e. no political power held by ordinary people at all.
Iran - hardline theocracy (i.e. ruled by a religious group (the mullahs)). No political power held by ordinary people.
UAE (United Arab Emirates) - absolute rule monarchy again. No political power to ordinary people.
Iraq - chaos. Don't need to say more.
Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Oman, etc etc all have absolute forms of (non-democratic) government of one kind or another.

Funny how "liberal" "westerners" seem to shout down the ideal of rule by monarchy or the church at home, yet tolerate it in the middle east?

Israel's "first strike" plan is perhaps understandable given that one of the main regional powers (Iran) is ruled by a hardliner who has publicly vowed to "wipe Israel from the map" by "any means necessary".

Frankly, with a neighbour like that, I'd have a contingency plan for a first strike too. No point having the moral high ground if you're dead. Also, the Israeli "first strike" plan is against a nuclear facility (come on, do you really think Iran isn't going hell for leather to get nuclear weapons) in hardened desert facility, and not a "carpet bombing" plan for civilian areas.

Note - I'm not trying to exonerate Israel's own atrocities here - I'm just trying to place them in context of the broader middle eastern picture.
 
u mean if Afghanistan or?

anyways yes maybe Israel would be overrun, but do the Israelians belong in that country, right on that spot of the map?

Hmm - maybe, but what of your own country's history. The part marked "your country goes here" on modern maps is because, long, long ago, people fought and died to draw those lines on the map. One side lost, another side won. The winner's weren't necessarily the "right" ones.

Again, just to point out that the history of all nations on the globe is generally bloody and violent.
 
If it wasn't for the U.S. and their aggresive politics, we would have lived in a much happier world now imho.

As a blanket term, that's incorrect. I think most people were quite happy with the USA's "aggressive" politics in World War 2, the cold Cold War etc.

If however you mean "the current US Administration's aggressive foreign policy has been counter-productive", I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.

:)
 
The reason Israel gets so much "free" help is because there are a lot of Jewish Senators in the American congress

That has no factual accuracy whatsoever. There are 13 Jewish senators in the American congress. The only significant one is Joe Lieberman and he only gets publicity because he's a flaming flip-flopping moderate and unfortunately my state's senator.

But the idea that 13 senators in the US senate being Jewish = free Israeli weapons just does not compute. There are tons of Christians in the US senate and house but they're not sending free arms to Ethiopia, the oldest Christian nation in the world which is often in turmoil with muslims as well.
 
its not the senate or the senators............. its the money............. jews have money (mostly because they are together)
 
That's a very horrible stereotype. Every member of Congress has money, much more than the average citizen. They make $251,600 a year when the average worker makes $35,000
 
Saudi Arabia - absolute rule by a royal family. i.e. Monarchy. i.e. no political power held by ordinary people at all.
Iran - hardline theocracy (i.e. ruled by a religious group (the mullahs)). No political power held by ordinary people.
UAE (United Arab Emirates) - absolute rule monarchy again. No political power to ordinary people.
Iraq - chaos. Don't need to say more.
Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Oman, etc etc all have absolute forms of (non-democratic) government of one kind or another.

That's all true, except Jordan. Jordan has a parliamentary monarchy, which is based on french codes. It's very much like european monarchies. I.e Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, Spain etc, except that religion plays a more important role in the Jordan lawsystem. This isn't necesarilly a bad thing: after all the Islam is a religion of peace. That might sound strange to many but that's because people are always confronted with the ideas of few radicalistic people.

I've been in Jordan and talked to many Jordanians. Everyone seems happy with the current political system there and hardly anyone has something against westerners. I was there at the time of the Ramadan. I had problems with that, because i felt guilty eating on moments they couldn't. But i asked a few people and they told me that everyone has their own belief and they accept that.

Funny how "liberal" "westerners" seem to shout down the ideal of rule by monarchy or the church at home, yet tolerate it in the middle east?
There's nothing wrong with a monarchy or a church as long as you don't exclude or provocate other human beings. It's a way of accepting people as they are.


Frankly, with a neighbour like that, I'd have a contingency plan for a first strike too. No point having the moral high ground if you're dead. Also, the Israeli "first strike" plan is against a nuclear facility (come on, do you really think Iran isn't going hell for leather to get nuclear weapons) in hardened desert facility, and not a "carpet bombing" plan for civilian areas.

It doesnt matter if Iran is gonna build a nucleair bomb or not. If Israel attacks Iran then the whole Islamic world will be furious at not only Israel, but the entire western civilization. You'll create more anger than you'd ever think was possible. You think it will stop after bombing a nucleair facility? No, Iran will strike back. And then you get a war, because israel will even attack a country if they only kidnapped a few people. Best way is just to put your weapons down and negotiate. War is only a very last resort, no matter what!
 
supermoose.gif


supermoose to the rescue!
 
Iraq: 152.000
Afghanistan: 8.000 (only :eek:)
Golf Region: 16.000
Cuba: 9.500
Djibouti: 1.800
South Korea: 30.000
Japan: 50.000
in japan 50.000 US soldiers? wtf?

Still afraid of a 2nd Pearl habour? :uhh:
 
in japan 50.000 US soldiers? wtf?

Still afraid of a 2nd Pearl habour? :uhh:

I think that's to protect Taiwan from letting China invade that country and to keep an eye on North-Korea.
They're prolly all settled on the island of Okinawa, where there is an U.S. Military base if i remember right. They even think that's a nucleair base :eek:
 
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This isn't necesarilly a bad thing: after all the Islam is a religion of peace. That might sound strange to many but that's because people are always confronted with the ideas of few radicalistic people.

Hmm, religion of peace? So, why, when you read the Koran (Qu'aran / pick your own spelling) does it talk of the duty of all good Muslims being to bring Islam to the Infidel (which, translated to English, means something very nasty and offensive) by "violence and the sword" if they do not convert willingly? Quick test: there is a Museum where you can actually go and see the sword which Mohammend (Islam's most revered prophet) used against the Infidels (Topkapi Palace, Istanbul). Tell me, where can you see the sword which say, Jesus or Guru Nanank used to slay their fellow men (hint: you can't because there isn't one for them).

See also:
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/ (if you haven't read her book, I'd recommend it as essential reading)
http://contenderministries.org/islam/trueislam.php
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch7.html
http://www.british-israel.ca/Islam.htm
http://www.british-israel.ca/Islam.htm


There's nothing wrong with a monarchy or a church as long as you don't exclude or provocate other human beings. It's a way of accepting people as they are.

Agreed, nothing wrong with Monarchy or Church/religion per se. There is something wrong when absolute political power is vested in unaccountable, unelected bodies however. And (Jordan excepted) these middle eastern monarchies are not the lovey-dovey European "Constitutional Monarchies" where the monarch is basically a powerless figurehead, but monarchies in the real, old fashioned meaning of the word. Ditto the middle eastern theocracies.


It doesnt matter if Iran is gonna build a nucleair bomb or not. If Israel attacks Iran then the whole Islamic world will be furious at not only Israel, but the entire western civilization. You'll create more anger than you'd ever think was possible. You think it will stop after bombing a nucleair facility? No, Iran will strike back. And then you get a war, because israel will even attack a country if they only kidnapped a few people. Best way is just to put your weapons down and negotiate. War is only a very last resort, no matter what!

Have to disagree here. I think it doesn't matter if Iran builds a nuclear bomb. Their leadership is unstable, their system of government autocratic, and the wishes of the ordinary people play little part in their decision making process. You ask an ordinary Iranian what is most important to them - having the bomb, or having clean water, schools for their kids and jobs to go to. Iran's leadership is composed of the sort of nutters who just might actually use the bomb. And then you'd be in a real shithole, because if they fired first, you can bet that Israel (with US backing) would respond in like (and overwhleming) fashion. And that is in no-one's interest.

As to putting weapons down and talking, that only works if both sides are sensible, rational and reasonable. In the current case, one or both sides is not. There is an old saying which is relevant in such cases: "Those without swords can still die upon them".
 
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Hmm, religion of peace? So, why, when you read the Koran (Qu'aran / pick your own spelling) does it talk of the duty of all good Muslims being to bring Islam to the Infidel (which, translated to English, means something very nasty and offensive) by "violence and the sword" if they do not convert willingly? Quick test: there is a Museum where you can actually go and see the sword which Mohammend (Islam's most revered prophet) used against the Infidels (Topkapi Palace, Istanbul). Tell me, where can you see the sword which say, Jesus or Guru Nanank used to slay their fellow men (hint: you can't because there isn't one for them).

See also:
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/ (if you haven't read her book, I'd recommend it as essential reading)
http://contenderministries.org/islam/trueislam.php
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch7.html
http://www.british-israel.ca/Islam.htm
http://www.british-israel.ca/Islam.htm

Seriously, there is no book that can explain any of the holy books. It's what ur own clear knowledge makes of it. Some sentences are understood differently by radicalistic muslims. Same goes with the bible. The only way to find out yourself is to read the Koran yourself and then judge. No other person on earth can describe what's said as it's just a thing to get judged by your own 'concious'? (dunno if thats right ;))
That's why there are sunni muslims, shi'a muslims, sufi muslims, etc etc.. Same with Christians: Catholic, Protestant, orthodox, reformed etc..

Have to disagree here. I think it doesn't matter if Iran builds a nuclear bomb. Their leadership is unstable, their system of government autocratic, and the wishes of the ordinary people play little part in their decision making process. You ask an ordinary Iranian what is most important to them - having the bomb, or having clean water, schools for their kids and jobs to go to. Iran's leadership is composed of the sort of nutters who just might actually use the bomb. And then you'd be in a real shithole, because if they fired first, you can bet that Israel (with US backing) would respond in like (and overwhleming) fashion. And that is in no-one's interest.
So it's a matter of who strikes first.. eventually they will fight a war anyways according to you? Btw what would be the outcome according to you on that question?
 
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