Fox Hunting

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Originally posted by TexasTom
4. Can someone produce evidence that fish have 20 second memories please. Cos if they have 20 second memories im curious as to why when you put your hand over my friends Discus tanks they come to the top thinking you are feeding them(havent been fed since previous day) seems like a reasonable memory to me. How come salmon "remember" to swim back to exactly the same river as they were born in?
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Not got time to look for evidence as I'm at work, but memory and instinct are two different things. Somethings are programmed in automatically - knowledge that when ur stomach rumbles you need food, When something bigger than you approaches you the desire to run away etc. Other things you have to physically put into your memory and save there - these things are the ones which can easily be forgotten and have a varying life span through the different species.
 
Originally posted by TexasTom
4. Can someone produce evidence that fish have 20 second memories please. Cos if they have 20 second memories im curious as to why when you put your hand over my friends Discus tanks they come to the top thinking you are feeding them(havent been fed since previous day) seems like a reasonable memory to me. How come salmon "remember" to swim back to exactly the same river as they were born in?
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I think its a case of `natural programming' as opposed to basic memory as such...but i think a bit of surfing is needed here :)

Originally posted by TexasTom
5. If people want to hunt why shouldnt they? I dont see them on the street forcing you to go. Just like with TV if there is something on you dont like you turn over. With fox hunting dont go!
People should remember the job of a democratic society is to PROTECT the minority from the majority.
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Yes but its not hunting as such is it. Its a form of entertainment from a different age that holds no place in a modern society. Do u think that cock fighting and bear baiting were/are exceptable activities? cos they are in the same bracket as fox hunting and dont try and fool urself that they are not. As for `turn off' if u dont like it...rubbish. By ur reckoning ppl should be allowed to do whatever they like within the boundaries of the law and noone else is allowed to comment.

As for ur `protect the MINORITY' point, that all depends on what that particular minority group wants to actually do.
 
Soz Spirit, we must have been typing at same time & ur fish memory point is basically same as mine :)

Christ im a slowwww typer :x
 
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By ur reckoning ppl should be allowed to do whatever they like within the boundaries of the law and noone else is allowed to comment.

I am not saying dont comment. You can and should be able to say I dont like it or dont agree with it or whatever. But equally they should be allowed to say well yeah we do like it and wish to continue. This is a 'class' argument for most people. This has been shown by people making ignorant comments about it being something for the privelleged. I see neither you or Spirit commented on the millions of bugs you kill each year, but thats ok. The amount of air time and thought Fox hunting gets is beyond belief when you compare it to the scale of the actual sport itself. I assume you would ban all 'blood sports' cos you hate to think people actually enjoy themselves participating in them. Because thats what people dislike. It isnt the death of the animal, i mean shit you run enough of them over anyway. Its the thought they actually enjoy it.

Go to a fox hunt or a shoot with an open mind, meet these supposed blood crazed individuals. See whether you enjoy it or not. Then you earn the right to make worthwhile and meaningful comment. Until then its purely conjecture and theory, most of which you have extracted from the press.

Did you agree with the animal rights peeps releasing 1000's of Mink into the British Countryside?
 
Oh and to answer the cock fighting and bear baiting question. I really dont see the similarity. Bear baiting or more likely badger baiting once again isnt my kind of thing. But if it were legal as in the Badger was classed as Vermin then I wouldnt have a problem with it. Cock fighting I personally dont agree with, but if thats what people wanted to do then it should be their choice. You keep rabbits in tiny cages, aint that cruel? Or fish in a 1ft tank?
We are becoming a weak society which likes to ban as much as possible, thats a sad thing. If the animal rights groups were to argue that cars should be banned because of the wide and varied detremental effects they have on the animal population you well tell them to go jump off a cliff. But because it doesnt directly affect you, its all fine. Maybe compter games that corrupt little kids brains will be next huh. Do you think that online gamers are a minority worth saving?

For spirit do you have any pets? Maybe they think they are serving a life term being couped up inyour house? Didnt you say yesterday you would prefer to be dead than that? Maybe people should only be allowed dogs if they have 20 Acres for them run in. Oh no we couldnt do that, that would make it a preserve of the priviliged!
 
I had a dog who died recently from natural causes Tom, but from your opinion I would assume you have never had one.

My dog was one of the happiest creatures alive, she was unswervingly loyal to all my family, greated us with more enthuthiasm than any human ever did. She was handed every pleasure life could offer on a plate and never suffered once through her life, we had a garden she could go out into at any point, and was taken for walks every day. You cannot compare this to being in prison where all of life pleasures are purposely taken away from you. If a dog was being kept in conditions that were similar to prison then I would strongly object to that.

I assume you would ban all 'blood sports' cos you hate to think people actually enjoy themselves participating in them.
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I couldn't give a shit if ppl enjoy themselves or not, that's not the point. The animals are being tortured for no gain other than people's pleasure. For all I care people can chew their own limbs off if thats what they enjoy, its an individuals right to whatever they want to make them happy. However what the do not have the right to do is encroach on other peoples/animals happiness and take it away from them. Each individual (including animals) has the right to live its own life without being intruded on by others. If killing is really necessary due to pest control then it should be done in the most humane way possible.


It's nothing to do with the fox being cute and fluffy, it's to do with the fact you are torturing it before it dies, it has the ability to feel emotions such as fear, pain etc. Bugs do not feel any emotions and would not even know what happened when they hit a car windscreen. Likewise the odd fox gets run over, it's a sad fact of life that accidents happen but we can at least avoid unneccessary deaths but not killing for sport and for peoples entertainment.

How would you feel if we started human hunts? Would you like to be the one being hunted? Well the people doing the hunting would enjoy themselves even more wouldnt they? A person would be much more of a challenge than a fox! But no, we dont have the right to take someones life like that, neither do we have the right to take an animals life for our own pleasure. People are killed in war and in accidents, and yes thats bad but sometimes it has to happen, but we don't kill for pleasure because its wrong.
 
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RE:

At the end of the day we live in a democratic society if the majority of the population want it band, then it should be banned.
 
If killing is really necessary due to pest control then it should be done in the most humane way possible.

Well gassing and shooting are off the list. Running them over at the side of the road is a bit hit n miss. You really are getting short of options. Which would u prefer.
 
Sorry I didnt notice we were maintaining list of what is acceptable and what isn't. Gassing was never crossed off, neither was shooting.

Gassing is a quick and relatively painless death for the fox in comparison to the hunt and as the gas is put directly down the fox hole it won't kill any anything else - no problems there.

Shooting was only criticised as you have to be fairly close and sometimes they only get injured - well take the time to get close to the fox before shooting, it will still take up less of your time than the hunt, and you get the pleasure of stalking the animal in the process (if killing is really what turns you on...). And the percentage of those which would be injured then get away is very vey small compared the the cruelty of the hunt.

You can't tell me you think gassing or shooting are more cruel and inhumane than hunting, surely?
 
Originally posted by TexasTom

I am not saying dont comment. You can and should be able to say I dont like it or dont agree with it or whatever. But equally they should be allowed to say well yeah we do like it and wish to continue.
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U said `if u dont like it dont watch'...if that isnt saying `ignore it therefor dont comment' i dont know what is....and i never said pro-fox `hunters' shouldnt be allowed to have their say. Of course they should but me, along with many many others dont agree with what they do and strongly want it banned...and believe me, that will happen.

As far as `having their say' goes, ive have a damn more respect for them if they actually told the truth as opposed to this `gotta control the foxes' & `what about our jobs' bollox that is all they ever bring to the table.

Originally posted by TexasTom
This is a 'class' argument for most people.
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Well thats ur opinion...but it isnt fact...and btw i think that ur opinion is wrong...but thats my opinion.

Originally posted by TexasTom
I see neither you or Spirit commented on the millions of bugs you kill each year, but thats ok
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:lol: Is this a serious comment? Imagine the scene - a stray wasp flies into my house. I spot the bastard and immediately the adrenoline starts to flow. I quickly don my Ferrari red Marks & Sparks track suit top & my green knee high wellies. Then whilst making tooting noises through 1 funneled hand i pursue the sod armed with a rolled up copy of `The Daily Mail' with the smell of blood on my lips.

Originally posted by TexasTom
Oh and to answer the cock fighting and bear baiting question. I really dont see the similarity.
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Cock Fighting - 2 cocks placed in an `arena' sometimes with spurs attached to their legs with a baying mob surrounding them egging them on.
Bear Baiting - Bear tethered to a post then starved and aggitated dogs are set upon it, again with baying mob.
Fox Hunting - A pack of dogs are starved for a day or so then let loose with the hope of finding a fox (They often kill other animals along the way). Again with a baying mob in pursuit either on horse back or on foot.

Now if u really cant see the simularities in these activities...
 
Aye this isn't a class issue in the slightest, I couldnt give a fuck whether its rich, poor or middle class go hunting. The fact remains I think its unneccesarily cruel to the fox.

Killing for pleasure is wrong, regardless of who does it.

Is this a serious comment? Imagine the scene - a stray wasp flies into my house. I spot the bastard and immediately the adrenoline starts to flow. I quickly don my Ferrari red Marks & Sparks track suit top & my green knee high wellies. Then whilst making tooting noises through 1 funneled hand i pursue the sod armed with a rolled up copy of `The Daily Mail' with the smell of blood on my lips.
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Wahaha :rofl: Now there's a picture :D
 
Originally posted by DraizeTrain
Cock Fighting - 2 cocks placed in an `arena' sometimes with spurs attached to their legs with a baying mob surrounding them egging them on.
Bear Baiting - Bear tethered to a post then starved and aggitated dogs are set upon it, again with baying mob.
Fox Hunting - A pack of dogs are starved for a day or so then let loose with the hope of finding a fox (They often kill other animals along the way). Again with a baying mob in pursuit either on horse back or on foot.

Now if u really cant see the simularities in these activities...
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Still fail to see the similarities:

1. Cock fighting: Animals in an enclosed area. No escape. Fight is to the death. No other option. Death Guaranteed.

2. Bear Baiting: Animals in an enclosed area. No escape. Fight is to the death. No other option. Death Guaranteed.

3. Shooting/Gassing/Poisoning - no escape, no chance of escape. Death Guaranteed. No warning.

4. Fox Hunting: Conducted in the wide open countryside. The fox has total freedom of movement. It is not a foregone conclusion that it will be caught, and killed, as options 1-3 above are. Also, the sound generated by barking dogs tends to give the fox ample warning of approaching danger. Gassing/Shooting etc - the fox gets no warning until it is too late.

If I was a fox, I'd sure as fuck prefer to be chased by dogs where at least I had an odds on chance of escaping, as opposed to the other alternatives, where I'd have no chance.
 
its a shame they block the entrances to th3 foxs dens though so the fox cant slip in them to escape, hardly what i would call a sporting chance
 
Originally posted by Thuringwethil


Still fail to see the similarities:

1. Cock fighting: Animals in an enclosed area. No escape. Fight is to the death. No other option. Death Guaranteed.

2. Bear Baiting: Animals in an enclosed area. No escape. Fight is to the death. No other option. Death Guaranteed.

3. Shooting/Gassing/Poisoning - no escape, no chance of escape. Death Guaranteed. No warning.

4. Fox Hunting: Conducted in the wide open countryside. The fox has total freedom of movement. It is not a foregone conclusion that it will be caught, and killed, as options 1-3 above are. Also, the sound generated by barking dogs tends to give the fox ample warning of approaching danger. Gassing/Shooting etc - the fox gets no warning until it is too late.

If I was a fox, I'd sure as fuck prefer to be chased by dogs where at least I had an odds on chance of escaping, as opposed to the other alternatives, where I'd have no chance.
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I think its more realistic to say u dont want to see any simularities :P
 
Stalk a fox? WTF the little bastards dont walk around whistling contently to themselves, saying hello mr gunman shoot me! I went shooting 3 days a week for 3 years + and saw 100's of foxes but only ever saw about 10 shot. They have an acute sense of smell and generally know your there before you know they are!

Also they are mainly nocturnal. Well you can lamp them. Scan fields with 200W+ spot light, see the fox and whallop with a rifle. Most ground is unsuitable for this as you need higher calibre rifles, bullets travel 1000+++ yards so dodgy at night. you never know who or what is behind your field of vision!
Lamping is a bit hit n miss and generally a waste of time, been there done that, never got a fox.
Gassing them, now thats a good idea, but finding fox dens is notoriously difficult. Also foxes dens have been known to have been taken over by badgers so a bit dodgy.

You could Snare them, nah to cruel.

Reintroduce gin traps? Nah to cruel too.

Rely on Mondeo driving company car drivers to run them over? Too unpredictable.

Shooting is probably the most effective in terms of numbers, but for overall cruelty hmmm i dunno. I wouldnt like to say that the majority of foxes that are shot are instant kills. And i wouldnt fancy walking round with a leg full of no6 lead shot in my leg!At least with the hounds when they get em they get em quick.

Anyway no one answered my Mink question.
 
Must admit I don't really know that much about mink but I would imagine that if they were released and started breeding they would soon become vermin themselves.
 
Originally posted by Thuringwethil (with bold bits added by Spirit

Still fail to see the similarities:

1. Cock fighting: Animals in an enclosed area. No escape. Fight is to the death. No other option. Death Guaranteed.

Animal ripped to shreds whilst still alive by another animal for recreational purposes

2. Bear Baiting: Animals in an enclosed area. No escape. Fight is to the death. No other option. Death Guaranteed.

Animal ripped to shreds whilst still alive by another animal for recreational purposes

3. Shooting/Gassing/Poisoning - no escape, no chance of escape. Death Guaranteed. No warning.

Quick and usually painless death for the purpose of vermin control only

4. Fox Hunting: Conducted in the wide open countryside. The fox has total freedom of movement. It is not a foregone conclusion that it will be caught, and killed, as options 1-3 above are. Also, the sound generated by barking dogs tends to give the fox ample warning of approaching danger. Gassing/Shooting etc - the fox gets no warning until it is too late.

Animal ripped to shreds whilst still alive by another animal for recreational purposes
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Spot the differences now? Something to do with the purpose of the kill and the level of suffering the animal goes through me thinks.
 
3. Shooting/Gassing/Poisoning - no escape, no chance of escape. Death Guaranteed. No warning.

Oh update! Apparently in the last few years (been 8 since i used to go shooting) Gassing foxes has become illegal. So no poisoning or gassing allowed. Another downside of gassing by the way is the stuff is so bloody dangerous to transport!
 
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Here's a novel idea, how about the farmers build cages for their chickens a fox can't get into? It really can't be that difficult - You have walls, a roof, and foundations so the fox can't burrow in...?

There's been plenty of talk that foxes are a pest and need controlling, but I want to see some real justification for this - not some petty "but they eat my chickens" cos it would be ten time easier to protect the chickens that to hunt the fox.

Foxes are not common animals, it's rare you actually see on out in the wild. They cause no problem to the general public, they build their dens in out of the way places, and can easily be stopped from stealling livestock, so whats the big problem?
 
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