Columbia Space Shuttle

[Squirrel]

Personally, I feel that "spiritual" aspects have no place in any society. They are a throw back to caveman past, and will, as the species moves on, be remembered as something of a big joke.]

Base your laws on who has the better imaginary friend, and we are screwed...

(and go for it extase, this has all been good natured enough that no-one seems to be getting offended... )

Well, you do tend to go close to that line though ...

I am a christian myself, and although maybe not offended by rour comments about religion, I could see other ppl could be..

It seems that you could confuse words religion/ous with a religious belief/system, the first being the fact that someone believes in a divine entity/God, while second is the human interpretation of that entity's will, hence prompt to human error, that is quite likely to happen

After all, how can we develop a peaceful world, when all the moral systems are based on retribution? You do not kill your fellow man because you will go to hell or you will reincarnate in a lower form, and be set back, rather than the moral reason that most people come round to: because it is simply wrong to do so.

Retribution?
A weird way of putting it, are you implying u would rather see an action without any consenquences?

Could you define wrong then, y it isn't right?

Base laws and morality on the simple respect for human life, and everything else flows from it.

What about ppl that don't see/have that respect in the first place? Can a human being be motivated to value/do smth without seeing the cause/consequences of it?

The issue you're trying to take on is not as easy as just a simple joke that will be forgotten soon, and you will hopefully see that.
Human history has proved that, and thousands of years go against your suggestion. Maybe you would want to revise your conclusion at least based on that..

Suggested reading for anyone is "Godless Morality" by Richard Holloway, the former episcopalian bishop of Edinburgh...

I'll try to get ahold of that, thanks.

As a conclusion, I would say that your remark was maybe not that clearly stated or hurried in typing, but it does certainly get close to an offensive one, and that kinda contradicst what u just posted. Yet, this matter is also out of subject, so if you want to pursue it you can start a new thread on this matter, and I will be glad to follow up with it.

Sincerely.

 

[Penny]

Hm Wint... I'm going off topic but...

I am neither a religious nor a particularly spiritual person but I don't think it's fair to say religion is a bad thing because certain people abuse it and use it as some sort of political mask to hide behind.

Base laws and morality on the simple respect for human life, and everything else flows from it.

Where do you think your morals come from? Do you think we are born with them or they are taught to us? Personally, my moral stance is derived from a Catholic upbringing and a level headed Mum who was knowledgable enough to filter out some of the shit from the diamonds. Religion isn't all bad.

 

[Twonko]

Originally posted by Wintermute
Thats because you don't bother to get off your ass and do some research before you open your mouth in public.

Erm..are you sure? Or is this just another kiddie flame? I have a friend whose brother is serving in Afghanistan with the British Army and I had a somewhat inebriated conversation with him in November last year and I get a very different message from him. The afghanis have a long way to go for sure and don't even understand the concept of democracy and freewill largely because their religion lends itself towards a high degree of control from the "church". I personally don't have a problem with this as long as it is benign. There are only two muslim democracies in the world afaik and few of the others cause much of a problem to the West.

The banning of cable TV as immoral is spurious since no cable exists in the country. A bit like England banning yellow brick roads. satellite TV flourishes where people can afford it, which is almost nowhere, even in the cities. Radio stations are freely available but people are still wary of listening to them and there are still a significant number of militants who take offence.

Don't know anything at all about Kabul University library but a quick search led to this . So it would seem opinion is divided.

And the women's march is reported here . Doesn't mention beating, but seeing as the Afghani security forces are virtually non-existent and the place is more or less policed by United nations troops, I suspect that beatings, if they occured were more likely to have been carried out by militant afghanis. I'm guessing. But that's where my money is going.

Perhaps Wintermute could enlighten me as to the reason why America should give a toss about oil pipelines going through Afghanistan. American companies are even proposing to build the pipeline. eg here

Wintermutes killer argument though was

Originally posted by Wintermute




yeah, just flick the "sell weapons" switch.

Don't talk Bollocks. /B]

As far as I recall and I just checked my previous post meticulously, I don't think I said ending weapons production was likely. I just said it was the best way to reduce poverty. Not the most probable, not the most politically expedient. Just the best. Perhaps Wintermute has a better idea.

My original disagreement that

Originally posted by Wintermute


They are as pig-shit thick about religion as before, women still have little or nothing in the way of basic rights/B]

is misinformed. It is unfair to judge Afghanistan by western standards and to assume that just because the Taleban have been kicked out by the West, that freedom and roses is an instant result. It will come slowly. My informed source assured me it is better. When he comes home on leave, I will probably see him and get an update.

Until then, please feel free to disagree with everything I say Wintermute, but please refrain from direct or veiled personal insults on me. I rarely talk bollocks when I choose not to.

In return I will only 'think' you are talking shite and refrain from saying it out loud

 

[FluidEye]

@ that first post in this topic, about the media and how they covered that "disaster"

you only fear death close to you. before the media we got today noone gave a rats ass about people dying in war or by accident in other countries, and not even if it happened in their own country but far away. since media could bring death closer to you - fear is increasing. when 200 indians die in a planecrash it's covered in some corner of some newspaper indeed, but if there where 2 swedes on that plane - it would be a headline here ofcourse - since it's for some reason interesting for the swedes to know that they actually are mortal also... humans are not compassionate per default, since birth, but survivalists - and the media can't sell information about a threat that doesn't apply to their buyers.

noone is not everyone btw

i don't care shit about those 7 in that shuttle. i wouldn't have cared if they where swedes. i would have cared if it was someone i knew or if they had crashed close to me... i didn't care about the thousands that died in wtc, neither will i care about how many americans die when attacking iraq - BUT i'd be glad for everything done that can prevent it from happening. we're just human after all...

if you consider yourself to have any insight in what's going on in the world, you can't limit yourself to western media, websites, and public information published by governments here... get a few more channels, radio, tv and newspaper from other parts of the world. bbc and cnn ain't exactly impartial in any way...

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Squirrel
I am a christian myself, and although maybe not offended by rour comments about religion, I could see other ppl could be..

I was a born again Christian. an extremely disturbing mind set, and one that has left me somewhat poisoned to religion as a whole.

Think of me as the extreme position of humanism/atheism. rather than the middle road position of tolerance, I feel that religion is a bad thing, per-se.

note: it's a *very* different thing to say I think religion is a bad thing, to extend that to people who are religious. imo, freedom to practice a religion is an absolute right, however, any state religion is a very, very, bad thing.

Originally posted by Squirrel
Could you define wrong then, y it isn't right?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, for my purposes a Human written bible / koran / torah / barrighad-vita worth the paper it's written on.

It's a pretty solid foundation for a moral system.

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Penny
Hm Wint... I'm going off topic but...

I am neither a religious nor a particularly spiritual person but I don't think it's fair to say religion is a bad thing because certain people abuse it and use it as some sort of political mask to hide behind.

Where do you think your morals come from? Do you think we are born with them or they are taught to us? Personally, my moral stance is derived from a Catholic upbringing and a level headed Mum who was knowledgable enough to filter out some of the shit from the diamonds. Religion isn't all bad.

I take another view. I think that religion is a bad thing all round, and not because it's abused. I think it's inherently wrong, and the root cause of more suffering than almost any other factor in human history.

Morality comes from Society, from normal healthy contact with other humans. Again, Richard Holloway puts it a million times better than I ever could. Morality based on religion is a weak, weak, thing as evidenced by the prolific child abuse within religious based children's homes and schools.

Personally, I think if you examine your own experience, you will find that a great deal more of your own morals come from your Mother, who seems to have been very formative from the fond way you speak about her, and a helluva lot less from the Church.

After all, what did they teach you other than not to use condoms, to hate gays, and that you had to confess your wrongdoings to a priest regularly?

All the good stuff, like not killing people, helping the weak, or those in distress, you get form simply being human, and raised right!

as always, just my opinions..

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Twonko
Erm..are you sure? Or is this just another kiddie flame? I have a friend whose brother is serving in Afghanistan with the British Army and I had a somewhat inebriated conversation with him in November last year and I get a very different message from him.

Very likely. My source is an academic, whose family live in Khandahar. I would expect that people who have lived through many regimes eyeing up the newly shiny clean Northern Alliance would take a more pessimistic view than armed forces on a mission, who believe they are there to do a good thing.

as always, somewhere in between lies the truth...

Originally posted by Twonko
The banning of cable TV as immoral is spurious since no cable exists in the country. A bit like England banning yellow brick roads.

Both Jalalabad and Kabul have a Cable TV system. BBC News Site

I believe (from the guy I know) that Khandahar also has a system.

Originally posted by Twonko
Don't know anything at all about Kabul University library but a quick search led to this . So it would seem opinion is divided.

Twonko man, look at where that link is! the US State Department? What do you expect them to say? "Sorry taxpayers, we blew millions, and it's still crap"? heh

Originally posted by Twonko
And the women's march is reported here . Doesn't mention beating, but seeing as the Afghani security forces are virtually non-existent and the place is more or less policed by United nations troops, I suspect that beatings, if they occured were more likely to have been carried out by militant afghanis. I'm guessing. But that's where my money is going.

The march which ended in beatings was actually by Afghani women in exile, in Islamabad, Pakistan. The violence seems to be have come from other Afghani exiles. My mistake. As your story said, the Kabul march was simply dissallowed.

Originally posted by Twonko
Perhaps Wintermute could enlighten me as to the reason why America should give a toss about oil pipelines going through Afghanistan. American companies are even proposing to build the pipeline. eg here

Ahh, Wrong way round... I'm stating that the primary reason why America is even interested in Afghanistan has more to do with the construction of those pipelines, for and by American (or heavily american invested) Companies, who are friendly to the Bush regime, than any other factor. Just as we are about to engage in an Iraqi conflict for oil, and oil alone. They want them built, to give another route for oil, bypassing the middle east.

If Afghanistan was not in a strategic location, would america have expended so much effort on it's war on terrorism? I'm perhaps too cynical, but I feel that a less important geographical area would have been left to rot, and bin laden's attack gave the Bush regime a good excuse to help out their Oil Company Buddies.

Originally posted by Twonko
I just said it was the best way to reduce poverty. Not the most probable, not the most politically expedient. Just the best.
Perhaps Wintermute has a better idea.

Seriously, there's little point in discussing a best option, if it will never happen

As for a better idea? Fair Trade, and handling international debt in a more humane and less corrupt fashion. And for the record? I do believe that the UK should (unilaterally, if needs be) stop selling weapons to non-NATO and non-Commonwealth nations.

Originally posted by Twonko
It is unfair to judge Afghanistan by western standards and to assume that just because the Taleban have been kicked out by the West, that freedom and roses is an instant result.

It is, however, perfectly fair to judge the Afghani regime by the Universal Declaration, which is a global document, not a western one. They have a long way to go. Let's hope your man brings good news, the people certainly deserve a better hand than they have had for the last thirty years.

Originally posted by Twonko
Wintermute, but please refrain from direct or veiled personal insults on me. I rarely talk bollocks when I choose not to.In return I will only 'think' you are talking shite and refrain from saying it out loud

Well, at the risk of sounding five years old, the only reason I started with "bollocks" was your very own starting with "shite" Let's keep it cool from here...

 

[Cutter]

Well, I cried when I first heard of the shuttle blowing up. Cried for the people who died, and cried because I knew that all over the world, people with a petty axe to grind about one thing or another are asking the predicatable questions.

If you were to ask me "Why do we waste time/money on space exploration", I would answer with a story:

There was a planet once, filled with a gentle people. All their time, money and energy was spent on ensuring that no one went hungry, or thirsty, or without a roof over their head. Everyone was very religious, and always said their prayers to the god of the people. All the answers were to be found in "the book", which was always right. The religious leaders made sure everyone believed in the word as written in the book.

The people did not trouble themselves very much to find out anything about their world, or its place in the universe. Their concerns were the small, the mundane and the quotidien. Their stomachs were full, there was a roof over their head, and their religious book told them that they would go to a wonderful place when they died. So the people were not troubled by their ignorance - indeed, they did not even realise that they were ignorant.

And one day, a massive rock, which had drifted harmlessly through space for thousands of years, collided with the world of the gentle people. The seas rose and flooded the land. The skies were darkened by the debris thrown up by the impact. The light of their sun was blocked out. And within a few days, every last one of the gentle people had died.

I for one do not wish to see our species die out simply because we chose to ignore everything outside of our tiny little planet.

It may be a cliché, but to me, it is still a beautiful phrase:

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light"

 

[Happy_Guy]

Originally posted by Wintermute
I take another view. I think that religion is a bad thing all round, and not because it's abused. I think it's inherently wrong, and the root cause of more suffering than almost any other factor in human history.

Morality comes from Society, from normal healthy contact with other humans. Again, Richard Holloway puts it a million times better than I ever could. Morality based on religion is a weak, weak, thing as evidenced by the prolific child abuse within religious based children's homes and schools.

Personally, I think if you examine your own experience, you will find that a great deal more of your own morals come from your Mother, who seems to have been very formative from the fond way you speak about her, and a helluva lot less from the Church.

After all, what did they teach you other than not to use condoms, to hate gays, and that you had to confess your wrongdoings to a priest regularly?

All the good stuff, like not killing people, helping the weak, or those in distress, you get form simply being human, and raised right!

as always, just my opinions..

Totally and completely off topic

But oh well, interesting enough.....

The only good thing I have seen about religion is that it gives people hope, they (who are religous) draw strength from it. So it is in my view NOT inherently wrong. Fanatics, those who think they are right and think the rest is wrong is unfortunately something you find everywhere. And it is THAT (feeling you are sooooo right) that causes of much mayhem.

I agree completely with the rest of what you say. Sure I was born and raised as a pretty orthodox christian (they do come in flavours and hmmmm mine is pretty bad, dancing was forbidden where I went to school, bla bla bla) But I did see the comfort and hope most of these people draw out of it. I think that is good. But fanatism is something bad and something you will find in so many different variaties, not only neccesarily religous. Fanatic in the sense that they impose on you what you are expected to think.

In an ideal society I guess peoples opinion and different opinions are accepted and co-exist. To a certain extend, sure one can push every idea to a rediculous limit where it no longer holds, but I hope we don't end up in a discussion like that. (very cheap in my opinion). One of the things I most disliked about my (former) religion is that it somehow imposed the dictature of a minority. Tough thing to explain, but its something that you should take notice and respect the wishes of a minority. For instance in my school, at the time, I was not allowed to drink coffee before I was 16 (I think) because SOME of the parents took offence of that. That really really sucks. Never mind the coffee, just the fact that you have to adjust your life to a minority. I was allowed at home to drink coffee, so why couldn't I do that at school? Small thing, but it shows the twisted way the tings surrounding religion work. I actually never EVER met anyone who thought it was a good idea not to allow pupils under 16 not to allow to drink coffee....

Ok beer was something entirely diffent, but I didn't like it anyway. LOL. that changed when I went to university, different story. Away from any kind of religious (and imbecile) constraint. Yeehaw.

Happy ending.


btw nobody commented on my previous posts, thanks. They most have hit a nail. (somewhere) Its not really worth arguing about anyway, except that the budget for space exploration and science needs to go up. (j/k)

 

[Cutter]

Jings, we're all a right bunch of geeks. At least 3 of us posting well after 1AM

@Happy - of course the budget for science, space exploration and education should be increased. Having an intelligent population increases the wealth of a country, and not just in monetary terms.

Alas, the current government has no interest in actually improving the lot of the people. Instead, its members are more concerned with feathering their own nests. The current government has also done more than any other before which is calculated to discredit any opposition, and entrench its own power. I suppose that is only natural for a government, but hey...

The UK needs to break away from old, discredited ideas like redistributive socialism as a cure for the ills of society. History has proved that systems based on these models never work, because they simply allow human laziness a fertile flower bed to flourish in. A few people do all the work, and the rest sit about on their backsides. Not because they are stupid, or incapable, or so disabled as not to be able to help themselves. Just because they are lazy and the system does nothing to discourage this.

I mean, stop and think for a minute. Suppose Labour was actually serious about helping all the poor people in the UK. Helping them get an education, improve their life, and get a well paid job. Well, those people would then no longer have a need to vote Labour. They would vote Tory to keep their taxes low, or Liberal to salve their conscience. Labour depends for its political support on a vast block of poor, dispirited people, mostly living in run down inner cities who believe the only chance they have at a better life is by voting Labour.

The other problem the UK needs to overcome is the petty, envious nature of many of its people and minor civil servants. Consider: You come from a not particularly well off family. You work hard at school, and get a decent education. While your classmates are skiving off, playing the fool or the truant, you knuckle down. At the end of the day, you get to go to university. While your classmates leave school at 16 to work in dead end jobs like stacking supermarket shelves.

And they hate you for it. You're a "rich bitch" or "born with a silver spoon in your mouth". The problem is that they realise that if they had knuckled down when you did, the same opportunities might be open to them now too. But they won't admit that to themselves. And the Labour politicians encourage the idea that they are right to think that you succeeded because your parents had a few more pennies to rub together. This connivance in laziness and unwillingness of people to take responsibility for their own lives is the real problem.

Now take this one step futher. You've finished university, and you're in a good job. You are earning a decent salary, and naturally, after all your hard work, you want to treat yourself to a reward. So you buy a nice house, or a nice car. Again, the spite and envy of other people tries to pull you down. Rather than work hard themselves, they try to belittle your achievements with the same, tired old stories. Your parents were rich. Your family was rich. You had an easy life. And this even if your parents were dirt poor, came from a poor family and the only reason you are where you are is because you got off your ass and did something with your life instead of sitting back, passively accepting what life deals you, and then blaming other people for your problems.

Oh well, rant over.

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Happy_Guy
btw nobody commented on my previous posts, thanks. They most have hit a nail. (somewhere) Its not really worth arguing about anyway, except that the budget for space exploration and science needs to go up. (j/k)

Indeed. I new Science spending in the UK was thin, but ffs.

Spend more money on the foundations of our society!

 

[Ajax]

how many of you use mobile phones ? how many of you watch sky tv, how many of you use gps and how many if you use non stick pans etc

And yet nothing comes from the space program...........

 

[Penny]

Wint:

Personally, I think if you examine your own experience, you will find that a great deal more of your own morals come from your Mother, who seems to have been very formative from the fond way you speak about her, and a helluva lot less from the Church.

Yes but how did my Mum establish her morals, and those before her? She spent the best part of her childhood boarding in a convent - I'm not saying it was a great way to grow up but it obviously played a big part in the woman she became and the beliefs she established for herself at a later stage.

Happy:

The only good thing I have seen about religion is that it gives people hope, they (who are religous) draw strength from it. So it is in my view NOT inherently wrong. Fanatics, those who think they are right and think the rest is wrong is unfortunately something you find everywhere. And it is THAT (feeling you are sooooo right) that causes of much mayhem.

I agree with that. Religion/God helps some people to make sense of the world and to feel better about things. I'm not saying that it works for everyone but for some people - say those people in the third world's - hope is perhaps all they can hold on to.

Ajax:

how many of you use mobile phones ? how many of you watch sky tv, how many of you use gps and how many if you use non stick pans etc

And yet nothing comes from the space program...........

Read the whole thread.

 

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Penny
Yes but how did my Mum establish her morals, and those before her? She spent the best part of her childhood boarding in a convent - I'm not saying it was a great way to grow up but it obviously played a big part in the woman she became and the beliefs she established for herself at a later stage.

Again, she probably got most of her views of Morality from her peers. The ways in which the rules were broken tells much more about the morality fo the group than the rules themselves.

It's likely that seeing the difference between the rules that are obeyed for fear of punishment and the rules that are obeyed "just because" are more telling..

As an example, consider:

Why do people drive at the speed limit on the motorway? largely it's because they fear getting a ticket, or a fine, and are concerned about cameras or police cars.. they care about getting caught, and the punishment which follows, but they don't feel internally bad about themselves if they do it.

In contrast, why do (most) people not drive after drinking? because it's the *right thing to do* Fear of being caught plays less of a part, because this behaviour is socially unacceptable, and people regulate this behaviour themselves, because internally, they feel that doing so would make them a "bad" person.

As for religion giving people hope...

Is it not mind numbingly cruel to give people false hope?
What's the point of telling everyone that it'll be alright when you die, when it won't?

The Christian Church my family are involved in is pretty extreme, I know, but I know of a woman who died from Breast Cancer, after being told in a prayer session that "the lord had healed her".

in Faith, she stopped taking the tamoxifen, and the inevitable happened. To their credit, the churh urged her to take the drugs "as god could work through these" (nice cop out, huh?)

I don't know whether she started taking medication too late, or held off till the end, but I know she died.

and ultimately, that's the problem.

Religion gives false hope, and causes people to accept things here, because it will all be fixed by someone else: "god". Much better in my opinion to accept responsibility for your own actions, and know that this life is all we have, so we better make the best of it we can.

 

[Ajax]

i have penz soz i forgot the /[sarcasm]

We need space, earth only has so much room space has shite loads if we can only figure out how to get to it. Mankind has over hte last 100 years made some amazing break thoughs, if we stop pushing the borders of what is and isnt know the we will start to stagnate. Space has got to be the biggest unkown and untapped resource out there, ok the deaths are tragic but these ppl are helping us push forward as a race. Rockets and shuttles are our currant way of getting into space and they cost a lot, the first pc`s cost shite loads, space will one day become cheap and the benifits will be used by all, maybe not in our lifetimes but they will take Yuri Artsutanov`s idea for a space elevator, yes it sounds daft but given the new matrials we can now make in space this is becomming more a reality, this if ever built would cost next to nothing to run as the thory goes enrgy from the car comming down could be stored and used again. Yes its sounds a bit sci fi and hey arthur c clake used it in one of his books, but how many things that once sci fi have non become real, just to name a few, planes, calculators, computers, robots and satalites.
We have a future in space, we don`t want to throw it away cos of one accident, we want to move on and make it safer so it doesn`t happen again.

 

[Penny]

Aye Aj, it's just I don't think anyone replying to this thread is against the space program, (tho it might look it from the first few posts), we are asking why are we so keen to spend billions of £$£ on sending people into space, when we have so much still to do here and now for the people living on this planet who don't even have clean water to drink.

 

[Ajax]

thing is penz, we first heard of the 3rd world problems back in the 80`s lots was done to raise money, heck i sweated blood in the run the world thing. Now almost 20 years on we still getting asked to fork out. I dont mind giving money if i knew 100% it was going to the ppl who needed it, trouble is all to many times it ends up in the hands of the local goverment/freedom foghters why should i be asked to fund thier wars ? Get rid of the fighting and aid might start doing the good it was intended too, untill then one has to ask is it worth it ? Anyhow its not the goverments who need to wakeup about this its the banks, if the banks canceled the debts these countrys had then ppl could start growing real crops instead of cash crops. I`am no way an expert in the 3rd world though so if you can dispell this i might be changing my mind

 

[Rich]

i was sadend to here about the shuttle disaster
Space exploration, any exploration beyond our borders is in my opinion as valid an expence as exploring ways to stop famin,
the reason its on TV so much is as CS has said its a disaster and its shocking, its of the moment.
we as a global comunity are aware of impending famin in ethiopia which is going to be worse than 1985, we are aware of ongoing human rights violations in Palistine and other areas, we are aware of polution distroying our planet, our world YET we see little or nothing of it because it doesnt sell NEWS.

this disater will soon be out of the news and allmost forgoten in a week or two, over taken by a new headline

WAR

tho i think the "its for oil" shouters are sorly mistaken.

Sadam is an intelligent man and he knows there is noway of deffending his country against the United Kingdom of America
he would have offered his oil any natural resource he has to overt this war, that way he would be still in power and he could sell the propaganda line to his people that THE MIGHTY USA was scared of Iraq

Sensationalism, shocking and Zeitgeist NEWS sells, gets viewing figures that the bottom line when it comes to page space and airtime.

 

[Andy]

RE:

big plane go boom

 

[Rich]

/me slaps Andy

no spam and thats just plain nasty