Space Flight vs Social Programs

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Wintermute

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,345
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Strachur, Scotland
Roll up, roll up, see the results of the 50 year experiment!

The last every skylark rocket is going to be launched in Sweden tomorrow - what's Skylark, you ask? That's Britain's sub orbital space launcher. To quote the operator of the program:

"This is a 50-year-old programme - it began in 1955 and we will conclude in 2005. At one stage, it was a very big programme with over 200 people working on it.

"The Skylark is a classic. Back in the '50s, Britain was very advanced on the capabilities of aircraft and they were coming up to launch satellites; the country was Europe's leading light and we were up there with the Americans and Russians.

"It wasn't until later in the '50s and '60s that governments started cutting back on programmes."

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4490253.stm

So, let's see - back in 1950, Britain had an active space program, and a fledgeling National Health Service.

In 1971, the UK launched a satelite into Polar orbit from Woomera in Australia, becoming only the third nation to be cpaable of space flight - that same year (the year I was born, incidentally) we cancelled the project, choosing to invest the money in.... the national health service.

Roll forward to 2005, we have an NHS that costs a ludicrous amount of money, underperforms constantly, and our pensioners have to wait over a year for a hip replacement. (average waiting time in Scotland: 19 months)

France, on the other hand, had a space program in development in the 50s and 60s, which they chose to continue investing in, eventually forming the backbone to arianespace, and allowing Europe to have a "European Space Agency" that wasn't a complete joke. This, of course, led to the current situation where Arianespace has something like a 60% market share of all LEO and GEOsync launch business.

And France's health care? world class. A hip replacement operation is usually carried out within 2-3 months.

The UK, of course, sits in the corner and won't play along, trying to reduce ESA's budget every year, trying to repeat the same stupid mistake, over and over again.

The FACT:
If you invest money in a high tech project, such as flying to the moon or landing probes on the furthest planets, and you champion it in the public arena, making it something to be proud of... the entire fabric of the nation improves.

It's time for the whole "spend it on the poor" brigade to sit the F down, and shut the F up - history ahs proven them wrong, and at a ridiculous cost to boot.


W.
 
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Phew if only the situation was as simple as the title of your post suggests!

One thing is for sure the UK (or is it just labour parties?) is good at wasting money on shit rather than anything worthwhile! You might want to check the price of the millennium dome and then think how many space probes etc could be sent into space for that.

The NHS is just the same as all these other money pits in the UK, I won’t make a list as I’ll get depressed. They are perhaps good ideas but due to bad management and incompetence they end up being a joke. The NHS problem looks simple to me…there is far to much money going on useless paper pushing middle management and not enough going on nurses. The government needs to take decisive action to solve the problem…but….tony blair…decisive….lol….he’s too much of a pussy to do anything drastic.

The sad truth is that the UK needs an NHS because there are so many poor people. I’m not sure about France Winty (not much time for papers these days) but in places like Norway and Swizerland for example most people if not all can afford to pay for healthcare.

Why things are like this it’s hard to say perhaps people with little means just get lazy since they know they get relatively good care from the state in the UK. If that is the case then it’s a catch 22…

I’ve been thinking about stuff like this a lot recently since I’ve been living in Norway this year. I mean why are things so good here when Norway was a poor place full of farmers until they found the oil? Mind you I guess poor farmers still have a better quality of life than poor workers in a mine.

The UK is both wealthy and powerful…..why do we still have so many poor people? Why don’t we see more people flying British flags and being proud like they do in so many other countries. On my way to work today there were a fleet of Norwegian battleships in the harbour all flying flags high and drums banging I felt proud even though I’m not from here. Maybe that’s the root of the problem, most people have nothing to be proud about in the UK….at least I can’t remember the last time I felt proud to be British. Last thing I thought in the UK was ….I’ll get paid and appreciated more if I get out of here….see yaaaaaaa! Same with most of my other fellow scientists.

Maybe it’s the price we pay for starting the industrial revolution. Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle, Birmingham and many more in the UK were all massive industrial cities with huge population of low paid workers, living in shitty conditions. It’s only fairly recently that these type of cities have started to become commercial/finance centres as all the old industries die(d) out. But even today these places still have the most poverty, lowest literacy levels and poorest health because of their history.

With such a diverse population it must be very difficult to decide where to spend money. But one thing is definite – the present government is not spending wisely on social issues, education, infrastructure, military or space travel. There is a long line of neglected, poorly managed issues in the UK and I bet space is very low down on that list.
 
that was all just pure speculation by the way in case that wasn't obvious. Not in keeping with forum rules probably but don't have time to look for evidence atm. :( ;)
 
Wintermute said:
France, on the other hand, had a space program in development in the 50s and 60s, which they chose to continue investing in, eventually forming the backbone to arianespace, and allowing Europe to have a "European Space Agency" that wasn't a complete joke. This, of course, led to the current situation where Arianespace has something like a 60% market share of all LEO and GEOsync launch business.

And France's health care? world class. A hip replacement operation is usually carried out within 2-3 months.

Can't comment on the hip replacement stuff, as I don't live in France.

Ariane has its own problems, so its not quite the bed of roses either.

There now follows my own personal opinions:

Regarding "Flying the Flag", the problem in this country isn't so much that there is nothing to be proud of (there's plenty to be proud of if you actually take the time to stop and read the journals which deal with things that actually matter and not just the 90% of broadcast media which concentrates on soap stars' love lives).

No, the problem is one of attitude. For a country which once was a leading light for personal initiative and industrial vigour, we appear to be descending year on year in to a sullen, jealous state, where people who get off their arses and make something of themselves are cried down and belittled as "rich", "well off", "silver spoon in mouth" types etc - that's when they're not being taxed to buggery and starting to think - why am I wasting my effort like this?

Couple that with a feeling of guilt over being proud to be Scottish/English/British, and the problem becomes compounded. We've reached a stage where a form of pervasive self-censorship seems to eat away at national pride and a desire to improve ourselves.

Show pride in anything other that the athletes at the Olympic Games, and you're denounced as racist/right-wing/etc. Case in point, and no offence to people like Martz, but look how "right-on" they are, eager and willing to stamp on anything which even hints at national self-pride lest it be construed by some people as "racist". Instead of focusing on such negative thoughts all the time, how about accentuating the positive for a change?

Being proud of your country and its positive achievements is not being racist. Flying your country's flag because you're proud of its positive achievements is not racist. So why try to demonise it as such?

The odd thing about the UK: we can forgive Germany for its Nazi atrocities of barely more than a generation ago, and say "it's time to move on, look to the future not the past", but seem oddly incapable of applying the same logic to ourselves.

Finally, we are currently being governed by a political party which has a vested interest in keeping as large a body of the electorate poor, under-educated and dependant on social security as possible, as this preserves its power base...
 
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You'd never guess there is an election on just now, would you? :D

Guys, I have actually read the Tory manifesto myself, so there's no need to unfurl the flag and start the crackly old tape of "god save the queen" up just yet...

What we are talking about here are two completely seperate issues.

Pride in your nation is all good and well if there is something to actually feel pride in... I'm seeing none of that just now.

Now, if I dig a little, I can see a bunch of stuff (mostly biotech) where the UK is pushing things forward and actually doing some really amazing things. Of course, most of that is being done by people from other nations who just happen to live here...

On the other hand, this entire nation seems to be nothing more than a loose collection of drug abusers, illiterates and general wasters, with the rare diamond glistening in the shit.

We tried to recruit this year, twice. The level of capability in the candidates we saw would make any educated person's skin crawl.

From the decerebrate who wrote a letter to me asking for a job in SMS txt speak, the girl who turned up and sulked that she was only here because her dole money would stop if she didn't come, to the guy who turned up stoned out of his face to an interview... what's to be proud of?

The UK is a festering hole, and as much as you try (with stunning predictability) to paint this as the fault of Bliar and New Labour, the fact is that the Bastards in Blue are just as much to blame for it as the Cockbags in Red.

Thatcher's legacy was a nation in ruins, and Bliar has done nothing more than poke around in the ashes.

You want an honest to goodness reason for all of this? Blame the consumer.

The constant drive to "cheap, cheap, cheap" that robs businesses of margin, that removes all quality from a product or service. British manufacturing is not flagging because of government policy, blue or red (and it's not helped by either colour of wanker either) - it's flagging because they manufacture shit, and can't even do that right.

Foxy - the problem isn't the number of poor people. That's a *symptom*. The problem is the number of stupid people. pathetic narrow minded losers sitting around doing... *nothing*

Thur, Foxy, you guys need to be out of your university social circles a bit longer.

For me, the horrible realisation happened only a few years ago - that the spirit to compete, to build, to develop, to push forward... is not universal. When you surround yourself with graduates, your friends, colleagues, family are all educated, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that all people have this capability.

The realisation that the huge majority of people are simply too damn stupid and unmotivated to make anything of their lives is painful. That it's not a question of education, although that helps, but of latent ability.

Hell, you will be lucky if one percent of the population has one tenth of the ambition and drive of a Tom Hunter or a James Dyson.

I don't have a solution, except to say that whenever we can, we should focus on providing financial resources to allow the vanishingly small intellectual resource that we possess to actually make a difference against the cloying sea of mediocrity and apathy that surrounds us.

The point of my post at start, more than anything else, was to point out that we are failing to do this, and have done so consistently since the 50s at least.
 
You seem so quick to assume I don't agree with what you are saying winty!

1) tory me? Nope I have no interest in politics and think all parties sing on tune before election and another after.
2) People from university I hardly see any more winty. You imagine me as some toffy nosed tory who only has uni buddies lol! I'm sure it would surprise you to know I am both well traveled and have friends from all walks of life, I choose friends based on if they are good, interesting people, not if they are rich/poor or educated/not educated. Just thought I'd clear that up!
3)"pathetic narrow minded losers sitting around doing... *nothing*"......yep!
4)"that the spirit to compete, to build, to develop, to push forward... is not universal"....yep most people follow the same path as water....the easiest one!
5) "Blame the consumer"...that was another good point. I hear similar things from m8s whose parents own farms, the supermarkets control the food industry not the suppliers. The supermarkets are more interested in cosmetic appeal and low price rather than quality. I made a thread about that in here not so long ago, did u read it? "economies of scale" it was called....
6) "financial resources to allow the vanishingly small intellectual resource"...I'll tell you the problem there. Scottish universities now recruit post-grads from non eu countries above even more highly qualified and able scottish students. Take my MSc at Glasgow for example 2/3 of the class were chinese, greek etc etc. They accept foreign students with lower and lower standards of english too. scottish student - £2000 a year, foreign - £10,000 a year. Where is this money then spent?....dossy useless new subjects like "bsc in nannying" so that the governments target of 50% going to uni can be met. Less and less money for real subjects because they are to hard for most people to succeed in. Even worse situation for PhD students at abdn just now....during summer when undergrads are gone it's a lonely place....I only know 1 other UK PhD student, and the foregin ones I know have a poor standard of english and stick in their own little groups. Then all the money spent on them vanishes when they go back home as they all do! Leaving scotland double fucked. But who cares as long as politicians have a bit of paper saying "50%" on it eh?
7) "The point of my post at start, more than anything else, was to point out that we are failing to do this, and have done so consistently since the 50s at least" yeh i agree again.

so all in all I agree with all your points except for you being ignorant and assuming I'm some sheltered boffin with no mates outside university. I live in Norway anyway lol, no mates from UK here let alone uni!

The same applies to me as many other scientists....I've left UK....living proof of the brain drain. Is true what you said about most of Scotland and UK I reckon....hense I'm doing all I can to remain in Norway lol! Ekk I'm old and synical and I'm only 25....doh! There is a lot that is good about the UK, I'm just following the trend of just moaning about the bad lol! :)
 
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On the other hand, this entire nation seems to be nothing more than a loose collection of drug abusers, illiterates and general wasters, with the rare diamond glistening in the shit.
:nod: :stupid:
 
foxy said:
You seem so quick to assume I don't agree with what you are saying winty!

1) tory me? Nope I have no interest in politics and think all parties sing on tune before election and another after.
2) People from university I hardly see any more winty. You imagine me as some toffy nosed tory who only has uni buddies lol! I'm sure it would surprise you to know I am both well traveled and have friends from all walks of life, I choose friends based on if they are good, interesting people, not if they are rich/poor or educated/not educated. Just thought I'd clear that up!
Quite right - I made an assumption, and got it wrong. Sorry bout that!

In that regards, I have probably had a more closed experience than you - almost all of my friends have been to uni, and most of the new people I have met in recent years have also been well educated... and that's only made it harder to then see just how lazy and apathetic the population at large is.

foxy said:
6) "financial resources to allow the vanishingly small intellectual resource"...I'll tell you the problem there. Scottish universities now recruit post-grads from non eu countries above even more highly qualified and able scottish students.
Yeah - I graduated from Strathclyde in '92 and it was starting even then.

foxy said:
Then all the money spent on them vanishes when they go back home as they all do! Leaving scotland double fucked. But who cares as long as politicians have a bit of paper saying "50%" on it eh?
It's so true it would make you weep. They build a culture of failure, and then try to make hitting a target of mediocrity something to be proud of.

foxy said:
so all in all I agree with all your points except for you being ignorant and assuming I'm some sheltered boffin with no mates outside university. I live in Norway anyway lol, no mates from UK here let alone uni!
yeah, sorry bout that - I take it back, unreservedly.
 
Thanks winty.

Going back to spaceflight, the main problem (as I see it) is that strong fanancial and political backing won't be available for space until someone has figured out a way to make money out of space, as I'm sure one day they will.

Lasers are a good example, when the "laser" effect was first shown in experiment everyone thought...great, but what can we use it for. At first mainly just in light shows etc. Now laser technology or optoelectronics I should say is a massive industry with application everywhere with billions being spent.

Once a craft has been designed that can get a payload into space very cheaply and safely things may get better.
 
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Wintermute said:
You'd never guess there is an election on just now, would you? :D

<sarcasm>Nah, gotta admit, I missed it myself.</sarcasm>

Wintermute said:
Guys, I have actually read the Tory manifesto myself, so there's no need to unfurl the flag and start the crackly old tape of "god save the queen" up just yet...

Oh good. Someone else who reads what the politicians actually say before voting. This actually heartens me more than you can imagine.

Wintermute said:
Pride in your nation is all good and well if there is something to actually feel pride in... I'm seeing none of that just now.

We all see what we choose to say at the end of the day. I prefer to be optimistic.

Wintermute said:
Now, if I dig a little, I can see a bunch of stuff (mostly biotech) where the UK is pushing things forward and actually doing some really amazing things. Of course, most of that is being done by people from other nations who just happen to live here...

Biotech, pharmaceuticals, aero-engine development, avionics, weapons (OK, OK, not the best example for some...)

Wintermute said:
On the other hand, this entire nation seems to be nothing more than a loose collection of drug abusers, illiterates and general wasters, with the rare diamond glistening in the shit.

Agree 100%. Amusing how you are expounding a view you, and others, have castigated me in the past for expounding.

Wintermute said:
We tried to recruit this year, twice. The level of capability in the candidates we saw would make any educated person's skin crawl.

From the decerebrate who wrote a letter to me asking for a job in SMS txt speak, the girl who turned up and sulked that she was only here because her dole money would stop if she didn't come, to the guy who turned up stoned out of his face to an interview... what's to be proud of?

Not surprised at all. I remember being at university and having friends asking me to proof read their theses and dissertations for them. Now, bear in mind these are people doing science and law degrees. By dint of that, and being at uni in the first place, supposedly in the top 10% of the population by intellect. The standard of english would have appalled you. The most basic errors of grammar, spelling, syntax and context being repeated with depressing regularity. If you can't express yourself clearly, all the native intelligence in the world is useless.

Wintermute said:
The UK is a festering hole, and as much as you try (with stunning predictability) to paint this as the fault of Bliar and New Labour, the fact is that the Bastards in Blue are just as much to blame for it as the Cockbags in Red.

Thatcher's legacy was a nation in ruins, and Bliar has done nothing more than poke around in the ashes.

Amusing how you always bring it back to what you presume to be my political views. Thatcher's problem was that she tried to encourage people to look after themselves and not rely on nanny state to do it for them. Unfortunately, most people don't want that. Especially in Scotland, which has a long tradition now of sloth, envy, mental torpidity and general idleness as a whole. Look at our parliament - supposed to reinvigorate the nation, and full of z-class nonentities.

Wintermute said:
You want an honest to goodness reason for all of this? Blame the consumer.

The constant drive to "cheap, cheap, cheap" that robs businesses of margin, that removes all quality from a product or service. British manufacturing is not flagging because of government policy, blue or red (and it's not helped by either colour of wanker either) - it's flagging because they manufacture shit, and can't even do that right.

Mmmm. Of course, you can equally make the other argument - the "high quality past" you look back on through rose tinted spectacles meant an age where slimming pills were tapeworm eggs, and British industry grew slack and lazy on government subsidy, turning out vastly over-priced and second rate shit. Its very rare to find products that are manufactured in this nation and deserve the price premium being charged. But this is an argument for another threat.


Wintermute said:
Thur, Foxy, you guys need to be out of your university social circles a bit longer.

Western General hospital. Glasgow. You ever worked as a cleaner on Level 8 receiving? Where the detritus of saturday nights out in Glasgow end up? Shit, piss and vomit all over the shop. Patients attacking you and other staff. Fun place to be, let me tell you. You know what the other cleaners from the "rougher parts" of Glasgow asked when I started? "You here for beer money then?" Answer: "Nope, I'm here so I can keep putting food on my table in the next year at uni". I've done enough shit jobs in my life, travelled enough, lived and studied abroad, been made redundant and bounced back and generally seen enough people to know that:-

Wintermute said:
that the spirit to compete, to build, to develop, to push forward... is not universal.

I think we actually agree on this point.

Wintermute said:
The realisation that the huge majority of people are simply too damn stupid and unmotivated to make anything of their lives is painful. That it's not a question of education, although that helps, but of latent ability.

Realised that pretty early on myself. Most people in Scotland especially assume that if you have anything worth having, you've somehow acquired it at the expense of "the downtrodden masses". No, the "downtrodden masses" were too busy arsing about in class. I paid attention, I got somewhere. Suddenly the fuck-ups realise their own mistake, but rather than try to reverse it, they take pride in their idiocy and mediocrity, and use their envy and spite as a shield to protect them from facing the truth.

Wintermute said:
I don't have a solution, except to say that whenever we can, we should focus on providing financial resources to allow the vanishingly small intellectual resource that we possess to actually make a difference against the cloying sea of mediocrity and apathy that surrounds us.

Very tory type of idea that Winty. Careful now, or comrade Tony will have yer ostracised! :D

Back onto the topic of spaceflight, the firm I work for had its annual transport conference the other day. Gave most of it a miss due to work pressures, but one speaker I made the effort to go and see what Will Whitehorn, one of the Virgin directors and guy imvolved in the new Virgin Galactic venture.

Excellent speaker, very confident, very enthusiastic and a very "can do" attitude. You have no idea how refreshing I find it listening to someone like that, doing this, trying to make them happen, as opposed to the lazy platitudes of our useless MSPs.

Now, no doubt you can take the piss out of Virgin Galactic and what they are doing, but personally, I think its great what they are trying to do. Yes, its funded by Paul Allen, most of the staff and scientists are yanks and so on, but that still doesn't detract from what they are trying to do. Will, originally from Edinburgh, now lives in London. Wonder why?

Anyway, if y'all haven't seen or read up on this yet, have a swatch at:

http://www.virgingalactic.com/en/
 
Thuringwethil said:
Agree 100%. Amusing how you are expounding a view you, and others, have castigated me in the past for expounding.
I don't believe so - others certainly have done so, however what I object to is the way in which you appear to blame the current government, whilst absolving thatcher and crew of all blame. I think they are equally culpable.

Thuringwethil said:
If you can't express yourself clearly, all the native intelligence in the world is useless.
Absolutely - One of the reasons that I cannot tolerate that imbecile who dosses around on the forums sticking "moon" on the end of everything.

And to think *that* has a vote? :shudder:

Thuringwethil said:
Amusing how you always bring it back to what you presume to be my political views.
Oh come on now - don't be coy. It's hardly a presumption to view you as a tory, when you valiantly leapt to the defence of thatcher at every turn, and carefully word your negatives (for the most part) to only slur the current (ie, labour) government.

I'll concede of course, that this could well be simply a position to assume for debate, however, this still makes it a perfectly reasonable assumption!

Thuringwethil said:
Thatcher's problem was that she tried to encourage people to look after themselves and not rely on nanny state to do it for them. Unfortunately, most people don't want that. Especially in Scotland, which has a long tradition now of sloth, envy, mental torpidity and general idleness as a whole.
I don't buy it. I am in favour of the privatisation of national industries (except for a critical few essentials with military or national security roles), and I am in favour of greater ownership of shares and personal stock investment. Thatcher said good things in that regard, but when you look at the way it played out... she was nothing more than a carpetbagger

What she actually did was auction off valuable assets of the nation for ludicrous knock down prices... which then gave those investors who bit the notion that the stock market was all about "get rich quick" rather than sensible investment. Her government sold off everything that wasn't nailed down, and we are no better off for it.

Had things like BT, British Gas etc been sold gradually at a proper market value, the benefits to government would have been incalculable.

She squandered that opportunity.

Thuringwethil said:
Mmmm. Of course, you can equally make the other argument - the "high quality past" you look back on through rose tinted spectacles meant an age where slimming pills were tapeworm eggs, and British industry grew slack and lazy on government subsidy, turning out vastly over-priced and second rate shit. Its very rare to find products that are manufactured in this nation and deserve the price premium being charged. But this is an argument for another threat.
uh-huh. and how is "we were always shit" inspire any more pride in the nation than "we have really let standards slip"? ;)


Thuringwethil said:
Western General hospital. Glasgow. You ever worked as a cleaner on Level 8 receiving?
Nope, but I did dig ditches (amongst other menial crappy jobs), and work in Law Hospital, Carluke for a period. The point being - I have already apologised to Foxy for making an incorrect assumption - same goes for you. The point (which we all agree on) is that the spark of human spirit is glaringly absent from many of the population.

Thuringwethil said:
Suddenly the fuck-ups realise their own mistake, but rather than try to reverse it, they take pride in their idiocy and mediocrity, and use their envy and spite as a shield to protect them from facing the truth.
How very, very true.

Why do Scots hate Billy Connolly? Because he got "above his station". That pathetic phrase contains all you ever need to know about what's wrong with the country.

Thuringwethil said:
Now, no doubt you can take the piss out of Virgin Galactic and what they are doing, but personally, I think its great what they are trying to do.
What??

Why on earth would I mock them? I absolutely live for this project - the X-Prize, the Ansari folks making it all happen, SpaceShip one? I watched the launch live... and when Branson (one of my business heroes, incidentally) got involved, I was ectstatic - because he's the sort of person who can make the impossible happen.


Thuringwethil said:
Yes, its funded by Paul Allen, most of the staff and scientists are yanks and so on, but that still doesn't detract from what they are trying to do.
ack. stop it! Now who is making wildly incorrect assumptions???

I absolutely adore Paul Allen - did you see the work he did with 15 year incubator companies? funding far out ideas that just might work, but don't stand any chance of becoming profitable in the normal 3-5 year commercial return environment? one of his companies produced subdermal displays which are readable through the skin, so you could have an integral, body powered insulin monitor for diabetics, or a million and one cool bits of tech we can only dream about right now.

Paul Allen is probably, in my opinion, the most forward thinking businessman in the US right now, and his involvement, both with Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites (the company which built SpaceShip One, and will build Virgin's spaceships) and the X-Prize foundation themselves doesn't detract, it makes it viable.
 
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Wint, so after the topic started as Space Flight v Social Programs and appears to have digressed (albeit interestingly) somewhat from the original topic, do you honestly see investing vast sums of money in a placebo like space flight as a viable alternative to spending on the poor?

It is obvious that you have a passion for such things, but how would spending on something like this benefit the nation exactly? I understand the feel good factor as reported when the national teams do well etc, but your experience of a few surly wasters that applied for jobs and your obvious frustration with the failings of our society do not qualify your initial statement.

Whilst yourself and Thur make some interesting points, there would appear to be a fair amount of spite being directed at those not as fortunate as yourselves.
 
"the poor" - what exactly u mean by that? You saying people from families with little money cannot succeed and need to be spoon fed their whole life by the gov? In my group of friends it's the ones from difficult backgrounds that have the motivation to succeed the most.

"Poor" is too broad a term, poor cos they cannot work? poor cos they lazy? poor cos they have poor parents? poor cos they junky? You think those people are all the same and the gov should stop money to space research to look after them all? You serious?
 
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No Foxy I didn't say any of that. I was merely using the terminology that Wint was using in his initial post.
I actually asked a straight forward question. You are inferring an awful lot from that.
 
When you spend money on high tech development in order to prompt new technology, it has an enormous positive effect on society as a whole.

IF you decide to develop, for talkings sake, a space hotel, when you award the initial multi-million pound contracts, that money doesn't vaporise - it is spent in three ways.

Firstly, the basic research people are paid. That's wages, and those wages are spent on mortgages, food, cars and other goods - in other words straight back into building the economy.

Secondly, there are a lot of materials required. All those widgets to be made and designed, sub components farmed out - which keeps an entire second teir of supply industry going - these businesses can of course fabricate other things, which strengthens general manufacturing industry as well. These businesses all need workers, and more, they need skilled workers - so you have good well paid jobs.

Thirdly, the operations side of things involves an enromous amount of people, again employed through hundreds of support companies. consultants from all walks of business are involved and generate more employment and business by servicing the project.

When you spend money on something such as, oh, let's see - tax credits for people who have done nothing more than breed, you get precisely *zero* back for it. At the very best, you recirculate the money a little.

It has been commented on a few cases that the greatest advances in technology and business happen during times of war - this war-boost can be replicated easily by a government investing in projects which really advance technology by leaps and bounds.

I came from absolute shit: a crappy area and dirt poor parents - My father did his level best to give me a better chance than he had, so encouraged me to go to Uni and be the best I could be... which I then had to fund with part time jobs.

Please, don't let us have this "those not as fortunate as yourselves." nonsense here. If I have anything more in this life it's because I have worked damn hard for it at every stage of my life, so yes, there is an aspect of bitterness here when I see people sitting on their fat lazy asses with their hands out for ever more help.

The truly pathetic poor are poor in spirit, not poor in cash - I was at a community project today in one of the deprived areas of glasgow, where ordinary people are doing extraordinary things to build community and help the area to improve. They have backing from a bunch of local businesses and some funding form the Scottish Exec.

I'd rather see money spent on people like them, trying to improve their lot than another billion being thrown into the benefits sewer on wasters and drop outs.
 
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BBStr@nge said:
No Foxy I didn't say any of that. I was merely using the terminology that Wint was using in his initial post.
I actually asked a straight forward question. You are inferring an awful lot from that.

Ah ok sorry, would have been a good point anyway.

Inferring more than I should again from BBs post (sorry) do you not think though Winty that many people (who have a vote) will not understand or see the benifits of advancing technology. Many people can only see that which surrounds them every day - schools, hospitals etc. So these things are focused on around election time not space travel etc. People for the most part want to think that their taxes are spent so that they get immediate improvements in their lives. I think the way our whole government is set up is wrong. If a party is only in for 3 years at a time - are they really going to be keen to spend money in areas where the improvements will be slow and heaven forbid actually come to fruition when another party is in power. I reckon thats why we have all the shit with railways, hospitals and other areas such as space flight. The ineffective "quick fix" is what we get. Most things need long term investment and planning to improve them though - a quick sticky plaster around election time is enough to get votes though it seems.

Average joe will say "money on space flight? men in white coats I never see except on the news? why spend my money there?"

I think all these problems stem from lack of education ( I'm not just talking about university of course) and what is really only a semi-democracy.