European constitution

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gonna vote no
tricked us with the euro, and tricked us with many things.
holland will lose a lot of rights...and i dont wanna be a state of europe tbh, like alabama in the usa
 
i will vote no aswell
although i am for a united europe, i am not for a united europe where countries get forced into decisions.
In the beginning i had no trust in the euro but that is starting to swing around slowly. In practise the big european countries always do what they like, and imo it will not work at this moment

change the constitution so smaller countries can also participate in decisionmaking and can keep their own freedom without europe telling them how to do things. In which case i would vote yes for such a constitution
 
deffinitly a No here.

I dont want to see the netherlands getting mostly controled from Brussels. They don´t know what happens here, because most of the time they are in brussels and not here. For them we´re not more than just a person with a number.

Although the "yes-voters" say that our identity wont get lost. There's still a chance that ie. our drugpolicy will change big time, because it concerns a border exceeding "problem". That way other countries can still say that holland should change his policy. A veto won't help in this case.
 
be glad that you can vote :lick:. In some nations (like Germany) you dont get asked.....wannabe bs democracy :nono:

Anyway i would vote against the constitution. Although it's neccessary. Atm a law doesnt get passed when a single (unimportant) country says "No".
With a membercount of over 20(?) that's impossible to administrate. Result is that the flexibility is near 0.

Nevertheless i'm against this whole "brussel-europeanization".
The benefiters are just companies, which can get cheaper employees now. The saved money they can spent in eu-politicians, so they pass the laws the companies wanna have :thumb:.
(another example for that is the €. Since the new currency started everything became expensiver and expensiver.
Benefiters: companies wh can trade easier in teh eurozone.)

Yesterday i saw how corrupt many EU-politicians are. That made me sick and very angry :mad:. bs cheating corrupt wankers.

sry for bad words :x
 
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i'll vote yes - if I get the chance, as well as getting the UK into the Euro as soon as humanly possibly.

This may sound a little big-headed, but it's my understanding of the economics of the situation - the Euro without the UK economy being part of it is much weaker than it should be. If you think the Euro in underperforming (although, tbh, it sure doesn't look like it), blame the Brits.

It's the ultimate screw-job. Britian has sat on it's hands waiting to see if the Euro suceeds before joining... whilst Britain not being there is preventing it from being a massive sucess. The economies of Britain and Germany combined are larger than the entire rest of the EU added together - if we threw our weight behind the Euro, it would dominate the planet. Until the UK joins... the Euro will stuggle. Sorry folks, but you have the idiot Sun-readers in Britain to thank for that :(

Thing is - local political control is good and well... but if you want to be anything other than a plaything of the United States, Europe needs to become a major force - a third superpower.

It's worth remembering that there are two parts to European Governance - the parliament (which is a pathetic joke, as all parliaments are...) and the Comission, which really gets the job done of making Europe a better place to be. When you look at what the comission has achieved in the last fifteen years, it's pretty amazing... and if the assholes in local parliaments hadn't been desperately trying to protect their own little empires, they would have done much, much more.
 
Allthough I am very worried about some issues in wich NL are "ahead" (gay marriage, euthenasia, abortion). I still decided to vote yes. A united europe is something i believe in and we all have to make some consessions.
 
Nanko said:
Allthough I am very worried about some issues in wich NL are "ahead" (gay marriage, euthenasia, abortion). I still decided to vote yes. A united europe is something i believe in and we all have to make some consessions.

I will vote no, cuase we have to make too many concessions cause we arent a big country in Europe you know....
 
Thb i'm slowly losing my faith in UE couse since we joined almost everything goes more expensive but monthly payment doesn't changed.
Gasoline, internet, food ..... european standards fs. Earnings are definitely NOT european standards here in Poland. For example i'm working as a PHP, JS, XML, HTML programer and also as a website designer. My main job is not simple WWW pages but advanced and commercial stuff like intranets, extranets, b2b, b2c etc. and my monthly paymenty is about 300 euro .... is this european standard?
One year ago (before we joined UE) it was enough to live .... now me and my wife have to work at 2 jobs. I just hope that mayby not me but mayby my doughter will have better life.
My vote will be NO couse UE fucked up too many things here allready.
 
united europe...germany is biggest member with strongest economy...sounds dangerous to me lol
 
Wintermute said:
i'll vote yes - if I get the chance, as well as getting the UK into the Euro as soon as humanly possibly.

This may sound a little big-headed, but it's my understanding of the economics of the situation - the Euro without the UK economy being part of it is much weaker than it should be. If you think the Euro in underperforming (although, tbh, it sure doesn't look like it), blame the Brits.

It's the ultimate screw-job. Britian has sat on it's hands waiting to see if the Euro suceeds before joining... whilst Britain not being there is preventing it from being a massive sucess. The economies of Britain and Germany combined are larger than the entire rest of the EU added together - if we threw our weight behind the Euro, it would dominate the planet. Until the UK joins... the Euro will stuggle. Sorry folks, but you have the idiot Sun-readers in Britain to thank for that :(

Thing is - local political control is good and well... but if you want to be anything other than a plaything of the United States, Europe needs to become a major force - a third superpower.

It's worth remembering that there are two parts to European Governance - the parliament (which is a pathetic joke, as all parliaments are...) and the Comission, which really gets the job done of making Europe a better place to be. When you look at what the comission has achieved in the last fifteen years, it's pretty amazing... and if the assholes in local parliaments hadn't been desperately trying to protect their own little empires, they would have done much, much more.


Taking your paragraphs one at a time:

1. OK, fair enough. Your choice.

2. Amusingly enough, I agree with you 100% here, but probably for all the wrong reasons. At present, (though probably for not much longer), the "European Economy" would benefit massively from the UK joining - mainly by propping up the ailing state pension schemes of France & Germany through enforced "contributions". As it is, and despite all the Franco-German ranting about the "British Rebate", the UK is still one of the biggest net contributors to the EU. France meanwhile stubbornly insists on preservation of the CAP - Common Agricultural Policy - which currently chews up almost half of the total EU budget and the biggest beneficiary of which is, you guessed it, France. Improving the European economy is not contingent on the UK joining - it is contingent on implementing long term, far-reaching structural reforms to improve the flow of capital and labour force mobility - supposedly the building blocks of the EU. 35 hour working weeks and government spending accounting for 40+ % of GDP do not a good ecomomy make. Of course, the current UK government is going hell-for-leather trying to "dumb down" our economy to European standards. It is currently being kept artificially healthy-looking by high property prices and consumer spending, but the latter has already ended and the former is looking ropier by the day, so just watch the shit hit the fan when it does ...

3. Oh please, do shut up. Britain not joining the Euro is preventing France & Europe from implementing measures to improve their own economies? What tortuous process of (un)reasoning led you to that conclusion? They already have the necessary population mass to make a real go of it, they have supposedly highly educated workers, so how can little Britain not joining their playground gang prevent them from becoming a success? Pull the other one. Remember when Britain wanted to join (what is now) the EU way back when? And how a certain Monsieur De Gaulle said "Non!" ? They didn't want us then, but now they do? Can you blame us for being reticent about the whole business?

4. Local control is good and well indeed. If other countries are America's playthings, why not have a look at why America is able to exert such influence.

5. Ahh, now we come to it, and your thinking here really flows on from 4 above. You realise of course that the Commission is composed entirely of unelected persons? Excellent. Can anyone here say "democratic deficit"? America has a federal goverment, but the States comprising the Federation have the kind of powers that member nations of the EU could only dream about if the European Constitution has its way. Essentally Winty, what you're saying is you want a massive, monolithic, regional power block comprised of unelected officials to provide a counterweight to US hegemony? We've been down that road before. It was called the USSR, and resulted in more human suffering and environmental degradation than anything which went before. More of the same? No fucking thanks.

I for one, when (if) offered the chance, will be voting against the EU constitution as currently proposed. I've taken the trouble to read the draft constitution in its entirity, and have noticed two things:

1. Clauses reserving or granting power to the organs of the EU state are defined in clear, unambiguous terms - "will get", "will obtain" "will be granted" etc etc.
2. Clauses dealing with protecting the rights of citizens against oppression by, or preserving the sovreignty of member nations from the EU state are drafted in rather more nebulous terms - "will endeavour to", "will attempt to" and so on.

Not very fucking reassuring, is it.

The EU was supposed to be about free trade, increasing democratic accountability and safeguarding basic human rights. Amazing how far it seems to have drifted from those noble ideas in so short a time, eh?

Frankly, the treatment of the new accession countries by France & German is disgraceful. Is it because they want to ensure the lion's share of EU aid (upon which they are now hopelessly dependant) goes to them rather than towards more deserving countries?

Last I saw, countries like Poland were introducing a flat rate tax - you can almost hear the coronaries from the fat old Franco-German politicians who realise the writing is on the wall for them...
 
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holy shit bruv, do you swallow 30 different broadsheets a day or what? pwnage post!
 
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brajan said:
My vote will be NO couse UE fucked up too many things here allready.
To be fair... your country wasn't exactly world class to start with though Brajan. :(

Things will get better, and they will improve by being part of a much larger trade block... what they will not *EVER* do is improve overnight.

And, to be frank, they won't improve that fast until Poland tries a little bit harder to improve it's own lot.
 
You know... I was about type a response, but fuckit - there is no point in talking to a Tory, never has been, never will be.

Let's just assume that I post a bunch of stuff that I have spent valuable personal time researching to support my views, along with a smattering of sarcasm, you reply in kind, we go a couple of rounds, and it ends in playground style "yo mamma" comments in about eight posts from now?

Now how much effort did that save?

I have one set of views, you have another.

This one comment, however, got my attention:

Thuringwethil said:
The EU was supposed to be about free trade, increasing democratic accountability and safeguarding basic human rights. Amazing how far it seems to have drifted from those noble ideas in so short a time, eh?
The EU was never meant to be about free trade or democratic accountability.

It was, and always has been, about the construction of a new political and economic powerblock - a new superpower - and even that, only as a stepping stone onwards to a unified one world government.

The EU project has been broken down into bite size chunks, eased in bit by bit so that it's easier to swallow - and thats the way it will continue. step by step, act by act, law by law, the Federal States of Europe will happen, and all of the inter-nation bitching about trivialities will become nothing more than footnotes for particularly keen history students to look up.
 
Wintermute said:
To be fair... your country wasn't exactly world class to start with though Brajan. :(

Things will get better, and they will improve by being part of a much larger trade block... what they will not *EVER* do is improve overnight.

And, to be frank, they won't improve that fast until Poland tries a little bit harder to improve it's own lot.

Well i never said Poland was "world class" but we were slowly reparing what comunists destroyed but now it's even more harder then before.
 
Wintermute said:
To be fair... your country wasn't exactly world class to start with though Brajan. :(

Things will get better, and they will improve by being part of a much larger trade block... what they will not *EVER* do is improve overnight.

And, to be frank, they won't improve that fast until Poland tries a little bit harder to improve it's own lot.

You know, that sounds almost as arrogrant as a French Politician saying: Well, yes, we know you're members of the EU now, and should be entitled to x, y and z, but we've already soaked up all the money, so you can sod off old chap.
 
Wintermute said:
You know... I was about type a response, but fuckit - there is no point in talking to a Tory, never has been, never will be.

If we're already descending to conjecture, prejudice and name-calling, well: No point talking to a woolly minded, head-stuck-in the sand guardian reader either. :rofl: I mean "The Tories destroyed Scotland" cuts me up every time I hear it. The Tories have never been in power in Scotland. Ever. Its been solidly under Labour control since time immemorial, and still is after devolution. Now, why is it that there is so much wrong with Scotland do you think?

Wintermute said:
Let's just assume that I post a bunch of stuff that I have spent valuable personal time researching to support my views, along with a smattering of sarcasm, you reply in kind, we go a couple of rounds, and it ends in playground style "yo mamma" comments in about eight posts from now?

I wish you would actually do some of the stuff supporting your views. If you took the trouble to look properly, you'd see how wrong you are.


Wintermute said:
Now how much effort did that save?

I have one set of views, you have another.

Not much, because arguing with you is so much fun. You're wrong on this point (and have been on others), and your blind refusal to accept it is a scream. :D


Wintermute said:
This one comment, however, got my attention:

The EU was never meant to be about free trade or democratic accountability.

It was, and always has been, about the construction of a new political and economic powerblock - a new superpower - and even that, only as a stepping stone onwards to a unified one world government.

The EU project has been broken down into bite size chunks, eased in bit by bit so that it's easier to swallow - and thats the way it will continue. step by step, act by act, law by law, the Federal States of Europe will happen, and all of the inter-nation bitching about trivialities will become nothing more than footnotes for particularly keen history students to look up.

And there was me thinking it just started off as an iron and steel union...

Unified world goverment. People fear the USA because they think they're trying to impose a NWO. But you're happy to accept it from the EU? How strange...

As for your last paragraph, what a joke. Lets see now, we have the stability and growth pact, which France & Germany regularly opt out of when it suits them, we have France blindly refusing to abolish CAP because they'd lose vast sums of money, the denial of full membership rights to the accession countries and many other examples I'd be delighted to list, to say nothing of the EU ignoring the genocide on its own doorstep until the USA stepped in. Given that the EU is being driven by France/Germany, and actually, mostly by France now, who use it as a way to try and improve their own lot at the expense of everyone else, and about which everyone else complains vociferously, how will the "inter nation bickering" ever stop? Keep dreaming.

Things are now so ridiculous in France that they are saying a vote for the constitution (drafted by a Frenchman, pushed by the French goverment) is actually a vote for "rapacious anglo-saxon capitalism". I mean, get a grip and unmuddle your mind before spouting forth.

See, not a single "y0 mamma" :p:
 
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Well after a bit research myself i think i should vote yes, and that's mainly because I live in a small country without very much influence.

Holland is a fairly wealthy country where work is payed very good (when you compare with other countries) due to that lot's of (cheap) work will move to other countries such as poland or the baltic states (to asia aswell ofcourse)

we as "rich" country can't prevent that and we should deal with it and concentrate us at the more difficult jobs and science and so on, things other countries can't do yet.

we also should concentrate us at logistics. making expensive and very high quality things and move them to other counties. With the european constitution this will get easier so holland can move more of there own products to other coutries in europe and easier aswell

that's my point of view