Defending Freedom of Opinion, Speech and Press!

[Lex_Mortis]

Universal = ? Who "agreed" to said declaration ?

Are you assuming that becasue some have agreed to said declaration that the rest of the world should follow suit ?

Following is the list of the 191 Member States of the United Nations with dates on which they joined the Organization.
So we are not talking about "some have agreed", basically the entire fucking world signed it, including: Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc etc etc...

Do you treat all persons that are not in agreement with your perception(s) with such hostility ?

Perception(s) is something totally different than Rights.
I do not treat persons who have a different perception with such hostility.
I do treat persons who deny my Rights with full hostility.
There are a few things that I hold dear and close, for example Rights and Privacy. I shall not back away from those.

Our planet is shrinking daily (metophysically) and tollerance and understanding of others is becoming all the more important. The statement earlier in this thread about "fuck em if they cant take a joke" is initially funny and true. Well at least it would be if the "cartoon" was funny, but it isn't, it's blatantly designed to be antagonistic & offensive. Hiding behind the "freedom of speech" banner is not an alternative for thoughtful consideration of others feelings.

Ah yes.. tolerance. Where is that on their side? I've seen them enraged.
Where is their tolerance when it comes to a cartoon, a simple drawing? I've seen them riot.
Where is their strength to rise above that? They are weak.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying newspapers etc should be policed. But I would like to see them edited by adults.

Adults made the cartoons and publishes them, the outraged muslims? They are infants.

 

[Thrasher (_!_)]

Editing a quote takes too much effort.....

All I see is a pack of easily led ? people claiming to be pissed off because some silly person drew an image of someone/thing that they hold sacred. The fact that we can't understand their strength of feeling because we have nothing that we believe in so strongly doesn't make their reaction unacceptable.

What Rights do you believe "they" are trying to stop ?
You appear to feel strongly about your Rights. Do they not have the right to feel strongly about their religion ?

Why should they ignore a blatant wind-up ? Should they "rise above it" / "turn the other cheek" ?

We seem to assume that because we cannot comprehend their "over the top" reactions, that those reactions are therefore wrong.

A simple drawing ? "A picture paints a thousand words", maybe just calling him a twat would have been less offensive, and just as pointless.

The cartoon should never have been printed, simply on the grounds that nothing will be gained by printing it.

Our outlook on life means we can generally find a funny side to anything. I guess they have some subjects that are never meant to have a funny side.

We should respect that some people have something to believe in and not to use those things as leverage against them.

I, like many modern "westerners" have no religious beliefs. I believe in what I see or percieve to be possible. But I do know that in conversation with a Priest I do not say the Bible is for weak fools and Jesus was just the orriginal hippy because he/she would be offended. A newspaper leads conversation and should similarly not be blatantly offensive.

 

[«)Fîrë$±ørm(»]

i agree with trasher although im convinced that many "very religious" muslims use the cartoons as an outlet for their frustration
but we got a lot of extremists ourselves dont we? IRA, skinheads, hooligans, etc
tbh i couldnt care less if our newspapers publish "muslim-critical" cartoons
i dont feel like my rights r taken away from me
muslims will get there where 'we' are by themselves sooner or later i suppose

 

[Thrasher (_!_)]

i agree with trasher although im convinced that many "very religious" muslims use the cartoons as an outlet for their frustration

Very true, some people will use any ammunition they can find to have-a-go at the western world.

but we got a lot of extremists ourselves dont we? IRA, skinheads, hooligans, etc

Depends on whether they trully believe in their "cause" or are they just looking for trouble ?

tbh i couldnt care less if our newspapers publish "muslim-critical" cartoons

I care, in that I dont think anything can be gained by pissing people off.

i dont feel like my rights r taken away from me
muslims will get there where 'we' are by themselves sooner or later i suppose

You assume that "where we are" is a good place ?

 

[Lex_Mortis]

I care, in that I dont think anything can be gained by pissing people off.

Anything can piss off anyone. Better stop publishing anything at all then.

And this is what I mean, dont publishing anything at all is just silly.. but the only true solution if you dont want to piss anyone off with whatever publishment/article/cartoon/text/etc. But that's also impossible to just stop doing (especially since information wants to be free ) plus there is freedom of speech.

 

[Thrasher (_!_)]

Anything can piss off anyone. Better stop publishing anything at all then.

And this is what I mean, dont publishing anything at all is just silly.. but the only true solution if you dont want to piss anyone off with whatever publishment/article/cartoon/text/etc. But that's also impossible to just stop doing (especially since information wants to be free ) plus there is freedom of speech.

You are taking the "white" of good publishing (information, reporting of facts etc) and the "black" of publishing (invasion of privacy, gutter press) and mixing them into a grey colour so as to be treated as one. You cannot do that.

As I said before, I am against press which is published PURELY to piss someone off. NOTHING else could possibly be gained by printing the "cartoons" depicting mohammed. There was no usefull information provided that would help us through our day, it was nothing more than "sticking the knife" into the muslims. Pointless and thoughtless.

 

[Lex_Mortis]

You are taking the "white" of good publishing (information, reporting of facts etc) and the "black" of publishing (invasion of privacy, gutter press) and mixing them into a grey colour so as to be treated as one. You cannot do that.

Freedom of speech and press can't be cut down, then you are on a slippery slope heading downhill for the rights.. You get stuff like "You can say anything you want except....." and that except list will grow and grow since each group/country will add things to it, until there is nothing left to say.

As I said before, I am against press which is published PURELY to piss someone off. NOTHING else could possibly be gained by printing the "cartoons" depicting mohammed. There was no usefull information provided that would help us through our day, it was nothing more than "sticking the knife" into the muslims. Pointless and thoughtless.

I laughed about the cartoons, they rioted. Everyone reacts differently, thus you can't draw a line about what you can or cannot do/say.
What if I draw a cartoon about a clown who isn't funny and get's mocked for it. Because the clown gets mocked a lot he goes on a killing spree, but during the spree fun/silly stuff happens like slipping over a banana or walking into a wall.
Others might laugh at it, clowns might laugh at it but some might think it's hurting their "profession" and don't see the humor in it. Would that be illegal then? Like i said.. slippery slope and impossible to put up borders.

 

[«)Fîrë$±ørm(»]

but we gain nothing by publishing them...
im not a guy that backs down if theres trouble coming up when im convinced to do the right thing...

they have to learn themselves that freedom of speech is a good thing we cant force then and we shouldnt
it just makes us look even more arrogant than we already are~~

 

[Thrasher (_!_)]

@Lex: You're doing it again, confusing "freedom of speech" with "common sense and thoughtfulness". Just because you can do something, does not mean you should do it. You're coming accross as shallow and arrogant.
Before doing something, stop, think if a) you're going to gain anything by doing it b) is someone else going to be worse off/offended by it. It called consideration, thoughtfulness etc
Freedom of speech is designed for people to be able to say what they believe to be true, not for idiots to hide behind so they can be offensive.

@FireStorm: Exactly. They have to learn that we are not the same as them....just much as we have to learn they are not the same as us.

 

[Lex_Mortis]

Freedom of speech is designed for people to be able to say what they believe to be true, not for idiots to hide behind so they can be offensive.

After seeing bombings, riots, killings... then I believe, no.. I know this is true:

The riots about the cartoons only affirmed this image.

Do you really think it's just something offensive without a single fracture of truth in it?

 

[Ðeadßoy]

any idiot can put a stick in a wasps nest waggle it and say " see they go mad and sting you they should be destroyed"

as for riots they happen all over the world look at the ones in London , Bristol etc in the 1980's

the ones over the poll tax as well we are no better just need the right provocation

for global peace we need more tolerance and respect as Thrash says

less than 1% of Muslims are committing these atrocities dont judge the book by the cover m8

the press and media show you what they want you to see

 

[Ice]

Before doing something, stop, think if a) you're going to gain anything by doing it

The cartoons are funny and that should be enough of a reason to publish them. But for one thing you are right, they are different to us in the aspect that we have brains and they don't. They should better ask themselves what makes people draw these cartoons about them and then destroy the part of their community that's responsible for it instead of justifying the cartoons with their stupid actions.
Comparing them to wasps (animals that are driven by instincts rather than intelligence and common sense) doesn't really help defend them.

 

[McNeill]

The cartoons are funny and that should be enough of a reason to publish them. But for one thing you are right, they are different to us in the aspect that we have brains and they don't. They should better ask themselves what makes people draw these cartoons about them and then destroy the part of their community that's responsible for it instead of justifying the cartoons with their stupid actions.
Comparing them to wasps (animals that are driven by instincts rather than intelligence and common sense) doesn't really help defend them.

Funny in your opinion; if the Muslims print cartoons about the Holocaust would you also take the same view? Would you defend thier right to 'publish' it based on freedom of speech?

 

[Bart]

Who said the resaon for their flames/protests are really those cartoons?
Imo those cartoons were just a needed reason for them to start their complaining.

like Ice pointed out, they ain't so innocent.
And why should we control our press, only because they have problems with it?
Over the last years i saw (funny and good) cartoons about USA/Bush, but i couldn't see such riots in the USA.

The muslim guys who flame just wanna start big riots and create a chaos with the objective to provocate a war between the muslim and the western world.

I saw reports about things muslim prayers say about the western world. Compared to that the cartoons were childish and even friendly.

Funny in your opinion; if the Muslims print cartoons about the Holocaust would you also take the same view? Would you defend thier right to 'publish' it based on freedom of speech?

i heard few weeks ago that muslim newspapers wanted to publish cartoons about the holocaust, just as revenge.
Although such a action would be completly bollox and dumb (the holoccaust has an more important and serious background than mohammed), speaking for me i wouldn't mind.
They can even make jokes about jesus, atleast i'm mature enough to keep relaxed.

 

[Lex_Mortis]

Funny in your opinion; if the Muslims print cartoons about the Holocaust would you also take the same view? Would you defend thier right to 'publish' it based on freedom of speech?

Nice comparation.. Religion which is based upon beliefs VS facts.

Something VS facts is just showing how thick someone is, nothing else.

How about you make a proper comparation?
For example muslim cartoons vs christian cartoons?

Didnt see any riots, killing, etc over that cartoon... and I'm pretty damn sure there are a shitload more cartoons like that (for example the "jesus lol" pics, which fucking own btw).

 

[Ice]

Funny in your opinion; if the Muslims print cartoons about the Holocaust would you also take the same view? Would you defend thier right to 'publish' it based on freedom of speech?

Yes. I make jokes about the nazi time myself. It's been 60 years ago and people who get offended by it or still have prejudices against the recent german generation need to lighten up.

Of course some people will find it funny and others won't, but good luck finding a joke everyone finds funny. Most jokes are based on offending people, but nobody seems to realize that until there's a joke that's offending towards themselves.

 

[sobo]

The only reason a German cant play UT with the name "nazi" for example is that OTHERS might be offended... seriously.
I for one dont give a shit if Im called a nazi, because I think people who do make a bigger fool out of themselves than of me

 

[«)Fîrë$±ørm(»]

i for my part do mind any offense towards me... although i never can be arsed to really care about it.

with religion, tradition, family rules, restrictive laws, and controlled press muslims have a hard time not to appear extreme to us. by publishing these cartoons we make it their rulers very easy to stay on top of things because they then can point their fingers at those evil westerners (thats us).
i.e.
if a member of ur family, that u dont really like, is threatended - what do u do?
u stick together because, even though u dont really like that member, it is still one of urs isnt it?

 

[IceDragon]

i for my part do mind any offense towards me... although i never can be arsed to really care about it.

with religion, tradition, family rules, restrictive laws, and controlled press muslims have a hard time not to appear extreme to us. by publishing these cartoons we make it their rulers very easy to stay on top of things because they then can point their fingers at those evil westerners (thats us).
i.e.
if a member of ur family, that u dont really like, is threatended - what do u do?
u stick together because, even though u dont really like that member, it is still one of urs isnt it?

no actually.

Mostly, but I've seen exceptions.

 

[Cassius]

by publishing these cartoons we make it their rulers very easy to stay on top of things because they then can point their fingers at those evil westerners (thats us).

Indeed, i feel so evil