Thuringwethil said:
Have to disagree there. Violence solves many things pretty conclusively. Just ask all those dead people. Violence is just politics once the talking has finished. But I won't belabour the point. About the bit where you say "...people I speak to is that all Muslims must die or be deported", do you actually ask them "what do you mean by 'Muslim'?". I wonder if what people are perhaps wanting to express is "all Muslims who support terrorist atrocities and seek a 'one rule for us, another rule for everyone else' approach to things" ?
I wouldn't even repeat the language that some people have used - but they believe that every single muslim should be deported or killed. Of course that is throwing the baby out with the bath water, but in their minds - terrorism is the worst thing to have ever happened in their lives.
Think how we all reacted with the London bombings. Just like 9/11 there was a consolidation of everyone to feel empathy for the people who had innocently died and a sense that it must be avenged. When we murder/kill a terrorist or innocent civilians close by - we almost validate their beliefs to others and create empathy for evi l- and this adds more support and 10 people will replace the 1 that died.
Sorry, violence does not solve anything. It may silence somebody, but it doesn't solve the problem in the long term. It creates anger and retribution which is felt for generations - exactly the problem we have now. The sooner we can start to live without the violence, the sooner the time will come when we life in a less violent world. It might take 1000 years to get there, but none of us are living ethically if we believe that violence and murder resolves problems. (IMO ofc)
If you are violent towards someone, that will not change their mind or viewpoint. They will just counter with greater violence. Violence just increases and we all lose. No wonder we have suicide bombers attacking us - and yet we all seem surprised when it happens.
Anyone can use violence - and I can't think of a single example where it has solved anything. We haven't erradicated terrorism, ethnic cleansing or racial murder by using violence to solve it. We may have stopped it for a short time, but the cost in terms of human life is astronomical.
I agree that it is used as an extension to politics - but that doesn't make it just or morally right. It just makes it the defacto standard.
Thuringwethil said:
Your logic is a little simplistic, but on a fundamental level, I would have to say you are correct. Although, flip it about again, and look at the vast protest to the war in Iraq that there was in the UK at the time. People didn't just accept their government's view blindly. That's one of the joys of democracy - you can disagree without being visited by the secret police in the middle of the night, or buried in the sand up to your neck and then stoned to death, etc etc. Not really an option open to the "silent majority" in oppressed middle-eastern theocracies you might argue, but one which is to Muslims living in the "west". Funny how they are largely silent then? (Although, to be fair, things have been improving over the past few days, although I suspect the reason for the sudden concilliatory approach by Hammas is the realisation that Palestine would descend into medieval chaos without the vast subsidies from the "Great Satan" and the EU...)
Logic should always be simple, it's a series of steps to get towards a conclusion.
What do you expect - from protestors though? Conservative muslims marching in the streets of London with banners saying "USE COMMON SENSE! NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERORISTS!". People who passionatly believe in something will go to great lengths to show it. The media will always cover the most sensationalist story - and thats the one you'll get to see.
The types of people you are talking about are activists, people who campaign and demonstrate their ideas - what democracy offers us.
The fact that you cannot hear the people who oppose it doesn't mean anything. Here are some sources (pulled from another source)
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?page=notislampetition&SubPage=Petition1
http://www.masnet.org/takeaction.asp?id=2648
http://baheyeldin.com/terrorism/do-muslims-ever-condemn-terrorist-attacks.html
http://www.americanmuslimwoman.com/id14.html
http://www.jannah.org/resources/muslimscondemn.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712548.shtml
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
Want more? Go google for it. It's there, it's just that everything is filtered because not all of us read or pay attention to any muslim media or news.
Thuringwethil said:
I suppose my attitude to those sort of Muslims is the same as to those UK citizens who betrayed their country to the Soviets during the cold war - i.e. if the country you have betrayed is so bad, so evil, so corrupt, so degenerate etc etc, why on earth do you stay here, accepting its shilling, freedoms, healthcare, etc? If the dogmatic, repressive, backward state you idolise so much is so great, why not go there? Or, perhaps, are you too enamoured of comforts like the right to a fair trial, freedom of speech, being able to drink the water and not get typhus and so on which you wouldn't actually have in the country you seem to prefer? Hypocrites.
Oh I agree with you about "those sorts of muslims". You may as well say "Those sorts of people". We are all people, but we are not all terrorists. Just like all terrorists are muslims, but not all muslims are terrorists. But that doesn't mean we can condoe their violence and then be violence back - otherwise we are the hypocrites.
Thuringwethil said:
I saw a quote in the weekend papers which I thought was very apt: "Islam already has a very effective form of censorship: Fear." Next time you express a view, stop and think before doing so. Ask yourself: "What I am about to say - am I saying it because I believe it, because I think it is correct, or because it is the answer which is 'expected'?". Remember that 'expected' and 'correct' are not necessarily the same thing. People it seems are afraid to speak out against Muslim atrocities at the moment for fear of being assaulted, branded a racist, etc (but lets keep to this point, and ignore for a moment any background history), or arrested.
Many religions are based on fear, especially Christianity. I fully support the freedom of speech, yet I feel that I am a minority for SUPPORTING muslims in the UK. Not a popular opinion for a middle class white atheist I'm sure. I'm more concerned by UK and International goverments actions which are underminding my own personal liberties, costing us billions of extra pounds to find and getting us nowhere.
Thuringwethil said:
Lets get some things clear: Criticism does not make you racist. Nor does poking fun at, satirising, insulting, laughing at or many other things. Now set yourself a little question: a man goes out into the street wearing a sandwich board. On one side are printed the words "Country X must be wiped off the map", and on the other "All Y must be killed like the pigs they are". Now, in the UK, imagine that X=Syria and Y=Muslims. Watch how fast you are arrested and dragged before the local magistrates. Now, imagine if X=Britain and Y=Christians. Die of boredom waiting for anyone to even give a shit. Now why is that?
Both are illegal under UK law though - encouraging people to murder isn't lawful nomatter who X and Y are. Maybe there is a double standard, but what do you expect when we seemily live in a country which deep racist roots, lack of education about other societies etc.
I fully believe that I should be able to poke fun, make jokes and redicule any religion - any whatsoever. And if we are not careful we are going to lose that right and freedom very soon due to a few terrorist attacks across the world which have imposed restrictions upon the victims. Strange huh?
Thuringwethil said:
And in case you think I'm being silly: contrast - man dressed up as suicide bomber, marches through London etc with masked chums bearing placards inciting murder. No problem. Police "examining tapes", and some half-arsed public apology by the perpetrator after the event. BNP member makes some objectionable but not actually illegal comments in a pub, whilst being secretly filmed (entrapment?) and is in front of a judge before you can blink.
The Police are fucking useless, and have their priorties in the wrong place - due to misdirection by policy makers. The only time anything gets resolved is when a huge media shitstorm revolves around the thing. The police say the guy dressed as a suicide bomber wasn't arrested immediately to stop a riot being caused.
On another topic - even though I don't believe in any of the policies or ideals of the BNP - the BNP have ever right to have their party, opinions etc. Just because you do not agree with their opinions - doesn't mean you should stop them expressing them.
It is disgusting, the people are thick fuckers with no idea about civilisation. Yet they have their rights at the moment - but the ironic thing is that it will be a handful of terrorists who relieve of us are rights for different reason, not the outspoken racists.
Thuringwethil said:
Now, setting aside for a moment the objectionable policies of the BNP, ask yourself: If all are supposed to be equal before the law, why are some being treated more equally than others?
Indeed! Why are we arresting people in secret, putting them on a plane and sending them a few thousand miles to be tortured? Why are we not putting people in court with a judge and jury - but instead using violence to kill them with the assumption that they are guilty. The more severe, revolting and appauling a crime is - the more important it is that that person gets a fair trial.
Thuringwethil said:
I guess what I'm trying to say is: history has shown that extremist parties get into power when people start to feel that their government is being weak/not protecting them/applying laws selectively/pandering to terrorists etc. Is the current situation not just playing right into the hands of the likes of the BNP? Am I the only one concerned by this?
I don't think the BNP are anything to worry about in the long term, and like I said they have a right to exist even though ever part of me disagrees entirely with their principles. The way we (the British/European people) are demonifying and taunting Muslims is actually helping the BNPs cause. We are polarising the world.
(Good debate though Thur).
![:]](/images/smilies/block-head.gif "Blockhead :]")
I promise you'll enjoy it. Its basically a book about the author's view that Islam has become over-influenced by one aspect thereof (Wahhabism), how it has become dogmatic and inflexible, and is thus doing both itself and its followers a disservice.
