Atheist fundamentalists

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Martz

Staff member
May 26, 2001
5,707
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From the BBC (again)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7156783.stm
The Archbishop of Wales, Dr Barry Morgan, has described a rise in [atheist] "fundamentalism" as one of the great problems facing the world.
Funny that. I'm not aware of many wars or conflicts around the world which revolve around not believing in something.

He said it advocated that religion in general and Christianity in particular have no substance, and that some view the faith as "superstitious nonsense".
Absolutely! At least the Archbishop is listening to what the atheists are telling him.

Dr Morgan said: "All of this is what I would call the new "fundamentalism" of our age. It allows no room for disagreement, for doubt, for debate, for discussion.
Pot? Kettle? Black? Religion, especially Chrisitanity and Catholicism allow no room for debate, argument or rationalisation. Atheists have been trying to argue for a long time that Christian values are baseless and unfounded.





It leads to the language of expulsion and exclusivity, of extremism and polarisation, and the claim that because God is on our side, he is not on yours.
How more polarised would you like to be that "Good/evil; heaven/hell; With us - against us".



Dr Morgan said it was "perfectly natural" to have a "coherent and rational debate about the tenets of the Christianity".
But he said "virulent, almost irrational" attacks on it were "dangerous" because they refused to allow any contrary viewpoint and also affected the public perception of religion.

Good I say. It's about time that the people who form and support religion actually had to defend it and their believes.

If someone claimed to be able to see Elvis, or could had super human powers, or was an alien from outer space living in London we'd have them sent for medical and psychiatric eveluation. We'd consider them nuts. But if enough people repeat the words told to them for generations it somehow becomes true and has value, is sacred and untouchable? The Dawkins way is to attack it head on and to disprove peoples misconceptions. If that is fundamentalism, then anyone who tries to find the truth in any area, be it science, technology or whatever.. is a fundamentalist. For trying hard to find the truth when other people might not like the results because it conflicts with their points of view.


Christmas always brings out the best in people eh? I consider myself to be an atheist and would label myself as such given the opportunity or challenged on it. Hypocritical of me to be "celebrating christmas" but I won't be singing Christmas songs or going to Church for midnight mass.



But this nonsense is being spouted by an Archbishop, at Christmas time, attacking the society we live in, to have maximum effect. Disgusting, evil, sickening thing that faith and religion.
 
Not believing in anything is in fact being seen in many different countries as intollerable. In the middle-east it's very unusual to say that ur an atheist. Some of them think that if you don't have a belief, then you don't have a purpose to be on this planet. I read a article about it a couple of weeks ago in some newspaper. A woman who went for work to the middle east always told the people there that she was christian, rather than atheist. Just because it's so unaccepted there to have no belief.

But I guess the only reason why this dude is saying it, is because he is afraid of his churches emptying rapidly.

Officialy I'm catholic (I'm baptized and did my confession of faith), but to be honest I've got nothing in common with the religion itself. I feel more compassion with Buddhism than Christianism/Catholicism.
mind the buddha in my signature
 
The other week I was volunteering at a church (sadly) and some lady said that it wasn't her church but was her denomination or whatever and I :lol:'d because why subscribe to something like that especially some system of it :rofl:

Have no problems with Christianity or Christians, don't think anyone can rationally argue against fundamental Christian morals like being nice to one another, not stealing, not murdering et cetera, but I do have a problem with people who actually believe in some system of organized religion, denomination, sect, whatever you wanna call it. I think that's beyond stupidity.
 
"All of this is what I would call the new "fundamentalism" of our age. It allows no room for disagreement, for doubt, for debate, for discussion."

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: This is why I'll never be able to take Christians seriously.

Long-established religions rely heavily on no-one ever being able to prove or disprove their tenets, beliefs, whatever. You've used the same argument I always use when I'm getting pissed off at Catholics - why is the story of Christianity any more believable than a story I can make up about aliens or ghosts? Just because it's been repeated for years it becomes unassailably true? Nah I don't think so.

A brilliant analogy is in Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. The whole idea of the book is that a shell builds up around the god in question, and that shell gets added to over years and years, like a mollusc. And eventually the shell around the god (ie. the religion) becomes so big that when the god inside it dies no-one notices. This is where Christianity now finds itself. It's now an institution, a club, a business, but it's hard to recognise it as a religion. And I think human nature will do this to any religion that becomes too popular or that kills enough people to force others into 'picking' it.

My parents were raised as Catholics and they raised me to be one too. I ditched it when I was 18 because I thought it was bullshit, but they continue to go to church every weekend, in fact they're there right now. They go once a week to church and do absolutely nothing else that would tell people they're Catholics, and it just looks like they go to mass once a week because if they stop it will be like admitting to themselves that yes, the whole thing is a load of rubbish, and they can't face doing that or disappointing their own parents. As if going to a half hour masss once a week will get them into heaven np, but doing anything else Catholic or Christian to uphold their so-called beliefs would be daft, because why bother if going to mass once a week is enough? They're bare minimum Catholics and it's pathetic. It's amazing how stupid religion can make otherwise intelligent people.
 
Useless, have you read "Richard Dawkin - God Delusion"?

It's an exceptional book, not in that it's revolutionary in what it says, but the way it's the way it's written, the analogies used, and logical thought processes which make for great reading. It allows you to arm yourself with knowledge and logic to argue against people who like to preach about their religion. Atheists or agnostics are often frustrated and bewildered by what they are arguing against. Dawkins gives you the tools to turn their arguments upside down and forces rationalisation. Now that may be considered fundamentalist because it allows atheists to argue better. However, Dawkins also says that there is being 100% atheists, 0% agnostic and 0% theist means that you are not open to possibilities, not open minded. The position to take is 99% atheist and 1% agnostic so that you will explore, prove, disprove and argue facts and evidence through the use of Science.

Dawkins is a fan of Pratchet, even though I haven't ever read his stuff - I'm aware of it from Dawkins and other writters who refer to it. They point out that even Pratchets work is fiction - the truths behind his storylines are based upon some extremely difficult truths.

Highly recommended, and stories like this only go to help fuel my frustration against religion and the people who fully support it with their lives.
 
Useless, have you read "Richard Dawkin - God Delusion"?

It's an exceptional book, not in that it's revolutionary in what it says, but the way it's the way it's written, the analogies used, and logical thought processes which make for great reading. It allows you to arm yourself with knowledge and logic to argue against people who like to preach about their religion. Atheists or agnostics are often frustrated and bewildered by what they are arguing against. Dawkins gives you the tools to turn their arguments upside down and forces rationalisation. Now that may be considered fundamentalist because it allows atheists to argue better. However, Dawkins also says that there is being 100% atheists, 0% agnostic and 0% theist means that you are not open to possibilities, not open minded. The position to take is 99% atheist and 1% agnostic so that you will explore, prove, disprove and argue facts and evidence through the use of Science.

Dawkins is a fan of Pratchet, even though I haven't ever read his stuff - I'm aware of it from Dawkins and other writters who refer to it. They point out that even Pratchets work is fiction - the truths behind his storylines are based upon some extremely difficult truths.

Highly recommended, and stories like this only go to help fuel my frustration against religion and the people who fully support it with their lives.

Right, you read Small Gods and I'll read God Delusion - looking for it on Amazon now :thumb:
 
Yeah, The Seflish Gene is good, but very heavy going with lots of information and arguments about genes, memes etc. It also influenced so many other people, Dawkins truely is a living legend who has taken Darwins Theories and put them into modern perspectives. He's brought science to the masses and made it more understandable without dumbing it down.

God Delision is much more about human nature, how we act, and what we do - without rational.

I like one part which talks about how we indoctirine and poision childrens minds with relgion from an early age. Parents tell their kids "Don't touch the fire, it's hot. Don't put your finger in the door, it'll get trapped and hurt. Don't do X, Y and Z, you'll go to Hell". A child has to listen to it's parents to gain the best possible chance of survival. They are dependant and will believe almost anything they are told. Is it right that parent should be able to scare their children into believing that horrific things will happen to them if they decide to be socially acceptable yet religiously unacceptable? This forced thinking and brainwashing is abusive in Dawkins opinion, and I tend to agree with him.

There is no such thing as a religious child. They haven't yet formed the capabilities to think independantly. There any many children who have been raised by religious parents, and inherited their faith - sometimes forcibly.

The other thing Dawkins talks about in his book and in interviews is that Religion is untouchable. It should be challenged, broken down and proven wrong. Believers become offended when they are asked to justify their position. They do not have special circumstances where they can become offended that you do not believe their opinions or ask for them to be proven.

Lots of good stuff in there :)
 
Something I saw recently was 'The Adventure of English'. Not about religion but about the story of the english language. But was interesting that at one point all religous services etc were spoken in Latin. It wasn't for us comman folk to know or understand what religion was about. We were kept from any sort of meanings and that was left to the upper clergy and bishops to know. Our job was just to do as we are told, say amen at the right places etc. When a movement started to translate the bible and the scriptures it was hard opposed by the church ( catholic at the time in england i think ).

Seems like another means of control of the masses by the 'knowing few' in power over the common people. Now things have changed around and people can question more. But I have to wonder sometimes about concepts like heaven and hell, whether they are just metaphors for states of being in our lives. If you sin then at some point in your life you will regret it and other people will shun you because of it. Sounds like something to warn people against, but easier to explain as 'hell' than 'conscience'. Not really the same as warning kids against putting their fingers in a fire because that is not a crime and doesn't do harm to other people. But saying 'don't steal' makes more sense in a social way so make it a comandment.

Have to ask also why keep the two testaments when in the first we get 'an eye for an eye' and in the second 'turn the other cheek'. Seems to me that some members of society use each when it suits them. Don't ask the reason why, just do or die. Fundementalists scare me frankly and not just muslims. You only have to look at israel and the support they get from the usa and other western govenments.

Anyway I'm wandering cos I've had a few drinks, but yeah religion is a strange and dangerous thing because it gives reason for people to destroy each other for no other reason than their 'faith' which in most cases is something dictated to them by the upper classes and using stories that were written 1000s of years ago. Probably useful proverbs, but not to be taken literally.
 
religion is a strange and dangerous thing because it gives reason for people to destroy each other for no other reason than their 'faith' which in most cases is something dictated to them by the upper classes and using stories that were written 1000s of years ago. Probably useful proverbs, but not to be taken literally.

Exactly, I think it's better to see it is a philosophy that people can adhere to if they want and can give up if they want. Making it a religion with commandments and mortal sins and "do this or you're not a true believer and you're not getting into heaven" attitudes is always goign to be a bad idea. This is why so many people hate religious people but no-one hates philosophers. It's one thing to have the so-called strength and conviction to live your life according to a set of beliefs, but I live my life by a set of beliefs too and I do it without calling it my religion, or invoking some intangible god to justify my actions. Besides, how many religious people do you know who truly live their lives 100% by their beliefs? Because if they don't, and if they just pick and choose the bits of the religion they like, they get no respect for it from me :whatever:
 
I believe in God and i even go to the church.

GTFO, must have been your first response. But.. ..wait..! I agree with you guys: Chrisitanity and Catholicism allow no room for debate, argument or rationalization. Christianity is an awfull generalization, tho. Christianity is so divers, and catholicism is only a small part of it. Altho i agree with the fact that many "Christians" (what or who is a Christian anyway?) are 1) too dumb to discuss, 2) are blindly following any priest who is making them believe the biggest bullshit ever and 3) too small-minded to make space for other believes.

Whenever someone asks me what i believe, i _never_ say that i follow one of the mainstream christian believes (like Catholicism, or whatever). All i do is believe the Bible, and try to interpreter it the way I think is the best.
I dislike the way the "church" is commercialized, catholics have their own little rules, not even based on the core of their believe, the bible (which makes me question what way "christianity" is going really). The funniest thing is talking to someone attached to catholicism, protestantism, or whatever and totally chopping their believes to the ground with facts coming from the book they are supposed to know (which they dont, all they do is suck the preachers balls).

Anyway, i know i am always open for discussion and i dont care who believes what (or does not believe anything). Everyone their own thing, eh? I never go around trying to get people believe the same as me. If people come to me trying to baptize me i feel offended aswell and i would gladly kick their ass. I can feel your frustration, i feel the same way when i take a look at "Christianity". The word Christianity makes me feel like puking anyway, theres so much CRAP coming from people who are supposed to know stuff and act according to it (the Pope, ROFL, what a guy. i agree with southpark on this one).

What i am saying is that there are people who aren't one of the sheep following people who are trying to make money, and who are open to discussion and see why people want to believe other things. I mean, not believing anything is believing aswell, i find that harder to believe, so maybe im just going the easy way.
The biggest problem is that it is impossible to have a fair discussion. Discussing these things with me would implicate that i have to put my believes aside and think without my normal paradigm. Discussing atheism with me or faith with an atheist is an endless loop of arguments that don't get to the point. Believe is the prove of what one can't see. If this makes your blood boil, than discussing my faith and yours and trying to figure out what is the best will be an endless quarrel with arguments that won't convince you, or me.

=)

BTW, Martz/Useless: most of the "rules" you are talking about are made up by people themselves just to make people scared so that they will follow their little believe and make money out of it. The problem with Dawkins book is that it is challenging the majorities believes including the stupid rules like "do this or u will go to hell", which i totally disagree with. I love dawkins book. Really. I agree with the fact that many people are ABUSING the Bible to make their OWN rules to make advantage out of the majority (which is dumb and follows 'important' people). The Bible doesnt even say anything about hell! The Ten Commandments arent of ANY value in this time (you can break them all you want, you won't drop dead (or I would have died a lot of times already, lol)), etc. The Bible is divided in a couple of timelines, all of them with their own principles and such. The principles which are bound to Israel are abused, the church makes people believe that we are Israel, right. Anyway, too much to say about it.

The problem you guys have is that you only know what the majority believes and not actually know really matters. Same goes for all the books that try to break peoples believe down (which is easy because many rules and other made up things are inconsistent, inconsequent and easy to break). The fact is that what once was the core of peoples believe, the Bible, is fading away and replaced by rules made up by 'important' people. The saddest thing is that 99% of the "christian" people are following them blindly. Many churches have thrown it away and dont even use the Bible anymore when having their ceremony.

@HeadCase: I dont see why you would say this. People kill eachother all the time, with religion as an excuse. This doesnt make religion dangerous, its the people abusing religion and using it as an excuse. The Bible doesnt try to make people kill eachother in any way. Ah well, i guess your views are blurred aswell ;)
 
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The other thing Dawkins talks about in his book and in interviews is that Religion is untouchable. It should be challenged, broken down and proven wrong. Believers become offended when they are asked to justify their position. They do not have special circumstances where they can become offended that you do not believe their opinions or ask for them to be proven.

Lots of good stuff in there :)

thats exactly the point where i think most atheists nowadays go completely wrong. belief by definition is something that cannot and should not be proven. everyone's entitled to his or her own beliefs if he's happy with it and should not be slapped in the face all the time by someone telling how stupid it actually is

i do see your points, infact i am an atheist myself and i think i'm gonna read the god delusion cause it sounds interesting but i feel some people just get too stirred up about religion

i suggest you read this article:

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=z7l8lk37pncd9zfjn38qnmmjbzxlbng9


i don't really like the way its written and i dont agree with it completely but it pretty much sums up how i think about this issue
 
@HeadCase: I dont see why you would say this. People kill eachother all the time, with religion as an excuse. This doesnt make religion dangerous, its the people abusing religion and using it as an excuse. The Bible doesnt try to make people kill eachother in any way.

Yes that is what I meant - people killing each other with religion as an excuse. From probably before the crusades up to present day. But from what I've read of the spread of christianity through the west, it seems that the attitude of the church was to 'allow' us some of our age old ceremonies (Yuletide is a good example) but convert these to a christian meaning. It was pope Julius who decided that christs birthday should be december 25th while there is absolutely no evidence to point to this, but it coincided nicely with the pagan festival of yule (thats where decorated trees, yule logs and presents come from). They were in a position of authority over us by rule.

In the past thats how religion spreads from country to country by the spread of rule from one nation over another, although there were missionaries too at points. Dont imagine that christians etc went knocking on doors like modern day jehovah witnesses or mormons to see who is interested in joining. I'm not blaming this on the bible of course, but it seems that there are people who when they get in power insist on pushing their beliefs on others. I won't knock normal christians for their beliefs either. There are far worse things than going to church, being charitable and praying for peoples souls. Its just those few who use religion to repress others that I take issue with.
 
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There are so many religions based on nothing, really. Like jehovahs, they just take one line out of the bible and build a religion around it, make up some rules, find some noobs to join up and knock on every door. I think the book that has been used more for other purposes than its original goal is.. the Bible
All the wars started with religion as an excuse are power and money driven only.

I agree with you on Christmas. Its got nothing to do with Jesus, born of Jesus and/or God anymore. People go to the church to think about their lives and take some time for themselves. They hardly know what they celebrate. These days its all about the money and power, even Christmas. It's a shame that the majority is too ignorant and dumb to make up their own minds. Mass indoctrination FTL :)
 
find some noobs to join up and knock on every door

:lol: Nice one :thumb:

It looks like you've got the right idea about religion, deadly, this is how I wish all 'religious' people behaved, rather than shoving it down people's throats and dividing the world into right and wrong all the time.

Believe is the prove of what one can't see. If this makes your blood boil, than discussing my faith and yours and trying to figure out what is the best will be an endless quarrel with arguments that won't convince you, or me.

Yeah I know what you're saying, but I still don't get why you, for example, believe in God, Jesus, heaven, whatever. If a Christian believes in his religion because he was told it was all true / 1 billion worshippers worldwide can't be wrong / look it's written in the bible and the bible's dead old so it must be true, I don't see why this is any more basis for a belief system than any random fiction book. Alice In Wonderland has as much solid substantiated basis in truth as the bible if you take that standpoint. But there's no religion based around Alice In Wonderland, at least not one I can find through google. I say I believe in little green men who live in my spoons drawer, you say you believe in God and Jesus. I get laughed at, you get a 'fair enough'. Why, when neither one can be proven any more strongly than the other? Christians and Catholics seem to love shoving God's oar in everywhere like 'these two people fell in love so that proves that God was watching', or 'that murderer got hit by a train and killed which proves that God is everywhere'. This is so infuriatingly insulting to my intelligence that I can't talk to a priest any more without feeling really pissed off at their holier-than-thou attitude. Arg! :shout:

I think a big part of the problem with mass religion is that children are brought up to believe in it or else by their parents and families, and by the time they're old enough to realise it looks and sounds like shit so it might possibly be shit they're too habitualised by it. They don't want to risk being ostracised by their parents or by other members of this religious club they've been in since childhood and the older they get the more afraid they are of making the break away from the religion which they didn't choose in the first place. It would be like admitting they've been wasting their time all those years on a load of made up bollocks that no-one can prove.

I think believe in God and all that if you want, or Allah or Buddha, but if what you believe in can't possibly be proven then you shouldn't close your mind to the possibility / probability that it's all a load of rubbish. Maybe it would be better to just live your life according to your own personality and morals and ethics and principles and scruples without having to have a god on your side? Using religion to justify a life seems pretty precarious to me and a bit of a copout. How significantly less worthwhile would your life be if you ditched religion altogether? Would it change who you are or change your behaviour? I don't think it would tbh and I think it's a shame so many people either don't realise this or don't want to think about it because they're too afraid of opening their minds that much.
 
I think a big part of the problem with mass religion is that children are brought up to believe in it or else by their parents and families, and by the time they're old enough to realise it looks and sounds like shit so it might possibly be shit they're too habitualised by it. They don't want to risk being ostracised by their parents or by other members of this religious club they've been in since childhood and the older they get the more afraid they are of making the break away from the religion which they didn't choose in the first place. It would be like admitting they've been wasting their time all those years on a load of made up bollocks that no-one can prove.

My parents raised me as a christian, but somewhere around age 12-13 i just started doubting the whole thing and my whole faith in it just faded away. So this is not entirely true.
In case of moslims it might be harder fo them to break with their religion.

So I guess that religion is losing its influence over time anyway, since several years ago pretty much every european was a christian if I recall correctly. Look at the ammount of "non-believers" we have now