USA and torture

[Gen76]

More and more i hear in the media credible reports of active use of torture by the americans, both in iraq and at home.Now if u take into acount all the other shit they do...

Am i the only 1 thinking "how long do we stand for this shite? the yanks arent all powerfull, we(europe) could make them bleed if we wanted.



discuss

 

[Tnega]

Its a matter of historical allegiences changing.
It takes time, but it IS happening.

 

[sneez]

I heared the Netherlands have plans for a full scale attack on USA.

 

[jwer_NL]

More and more i hear in the media credible reports of active use of torture by the americans, both in iraq and at home.Now if u take into acount all the other shit they do...

Am i the only 1 thinking "how long do we stand for this shite? the yanks arent all powerfull, we(europe) could make them bleed if we wanted.



discuss

on what ground would you want to make america "bleed"?

because they torture some of their prisoners of war? or because they do some things that shouldn't be done?

HAHA

How many country's in this world do worse to their citizens? 30? 60? 200? Iraq did worse to people then the USA does now, why did i never saw an "let's make Iraque bleed for what they do" thread in these forums? there's still millions of children working as slaves in India and other country's in the world, prostitution(read selling and buying women as sex-slaves) and no freedom of speech, and you want to make the USA bleed? WHY?

Many people (i.e. anti-globalists) like to kick Amerika feet but where are they when China excecutes hundreds of prisoners without trial? why is it always the USA this and the USA that?

The main reason they do so is because the USA likes to shout and say they are so good, and the rest is bad, now the USA isn't good but that doesn't make the rest less bad... you ever realised why many anti-globalist demonstrations never are in china? or in some nice middle east country? because they all get round up and smacked into rotting jails for years on end, the mere fact alone they can protest without being locked away should make them think! (you'd hope) but they don't....

why is it always being anti-USA when noone mentions they do things that are needed in this world like keeping some of the peace... What would stop insane world leaders from blowing people to hell with nukes? The risk the USA will blow THEM to bits with nukes... their presence alone in this world deterres dictators all over the world...

 

[Gen76]

Making them "bleed" wasnt meant litteraly.I was thinking economic sanctions etc to get them to " get with the program" so to speak. As for y them, that would make 1 insane longpost and to much time finding links .And tbh i cant be arsed with that atm.Much has been said before ,but without the other things in context.I beleave in reaching for the higher goals, its to do with what kinda philosophy towards our fellow man do we want shaping our global society.

That doesnt even remotely cover a propper explenation what i meant or what the problem with USA`s actions past and present.

 

[Urgamanix]

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[Hector]

Hallelluah to this. Anti-Americanism go away. While they don't do everything 100% perfect and well, there's a lot more people and countries to blame before them.

Let's have a slightly different perspective here shall we? take a step back and understand why the yanks- and brits- are getting a roasting.

Yes to the removal of despotic regimes, etc, the liberation of oppressed people, etc. But the concerns have been- and are still about- motivation and lies. Specifically, the reasons for war and terrorist defence and the lack of evidence to back this up. I'm sure there re some Iraqis who are happy that Saddam has gone, although they're probably not too happy about he resulting chaos, but the points remain: it was an unsanctioned war, WMD still haven't been found, and the West contributed greatly to it in the first place. Who polices governments? Us. Not much chance of expecting the Western Coalition to take an interest in human rights concerns around the world on altruistic grounds, and until there is a politic/financial/voting one they won't. They didn't go to Iraq to save the Iraqis ffs.

 

[Spirit]

W0t jwer said

 

[Urgamanix]

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[jwer_NL]

They didn't go to Iraq to save the Iraqis ffs.

well even if they probably didn't go to Iraq for that reason, they ended up saving them anyways...

It's a tough discussion though... it's true that the leaders of GB and the USA lied to their citizens to get the war going, and that alone is worth discussing...

To be honest, it's rediculous that a leader can go to war based on sheer lies. Any civilized country should have laws to prevent it from happening, or at least punishment when it does happen. It's a totally different discussion then the one opened in this thread though, so i'll try to restrain myself going into that

The thread was about economically punishing the USA. Well let's say america deserves it, and you WOULD want to punish them for what they did, what could Europe do? You see the european economy is as much dependent on the american one as vice versa, and any economic restriction would result in a loss for the european economy's as well... there's no way to punish america without shooting in your own foot basically...

But like i said before, there's no real ground on punishing them before most other country's in the world...

 

[Apoc]

one reson, USA claims to be the 'good guys', its not wether or not they are, its doubble standards.. also theres a common word for it yes.. lieing.. People tend to hate when they know they are being lied to.

 

[Hector]

What gets me is that the people who are totally to the right, Anti-Saddam, don't speak out, they keep silent, whilst the people totally to the left, Anti-American, think they are all-knowing and 100% correct, speak out and march.

I'm personally not on any side. These are all just people organised into groups based on location, fighting each other through greed and a lack of understanding.

The anti-current-governement thing is an attempted antidote to their propoganda and machinations. The government don't need our support, they have spin departments to do that. They DO need to be constantly called to question to avoid them burying their behaviour under a blanket of congratulation.

On a human level, yes, Jwer is right, People get saved and lives are hopefully changed for the good. This in no way excuses or explains the governments' actions. Governments do not act for the best- period. They act in the way that most guarantees them a continuation of power, whether though financial support in the case of smoothing business dealings or vote winning (war is always a goody) Take something like ecology though, you don't see Bush giving a fuck about that do you? In fact the opposite! Despite it being massively in the wordlwide public interest, it's not a vote winner-yet (see Kyoto protocol)

 

[jwer_NL]

one reson, USA claims to be the 'good guys', its not wether or not they are, its doubble standards.. also theres a common word for it yes.. lieing.. People tend to hate when they know they are being lied to.

You think India will confess to the world that they have child labour and slavery? or bulgaria that women-trade is huge in their country? or China that they are holding prisoners without trial?

Even if it's double standards and being lied to, aren't other country's then america lieing worse about the things they do? what amazes me is that everyone always attacks the USA when there's worse country's in this world... and i don't see anyone protesting against them!?

Besides what are "the good guys". Being a good guy always means you need to compare yourself with the others, and compared to other country's america is internally pretty decent. (their foreign policy is a bit dodgy, though so are others) so you could say that compared to all the other country's, the USA aren't THAT bad.

Governments do not act for the best- period

isn't this a bit over the top? if you presume you voted for a sane person you should at least expect that person to be reasonably moral even if he wants to stay in power? What better to get re-voted then your country doing well? The fact that ecology isn't on the voting agenda is apparantly because the voter doesn't care enough, instead of the candidate. If saying "i'll give you all wellfare, a job, money and a future" keeps giving people more votes then "i'm gonna create the cleanest country in the world" then can you blame the candidate for saying it?

 

[Apoc]

Besides what are "the good guys". Being a good guy always means you need to compare yourself with the others, and compared to other country's america is internally pretty decent. (their foreign policy is a bit dodgy, though so are others) so you could say that compared to all the other country's, the USA aren't THAT bad.

I'm my book beging the good guy is not by compareing yourself to everyone else. And then set do slighty better than them. Yes, thats not all bad.. but hardly how you would want the guy that dictates moral standards to act.

I just dont see how you can justfy them saying one thing, and when they do another, defend it with 'they do far worse than us'. Good or bad.. its still lieing in my book.

 

[Hector]

You think India will confess to the world that they have child labour and slavery? or bulgaria that women-trade is huge in their country? or China that they are holding prisoners without trial?

But these aren't our countries. We don't vote for their governements, pay their taxes or suffer their hell. I can't see any point in comparing our respective ethoi unless we simply want to see how better off we are than they. Whereas I think we should be striving to be better off than we are.

For instance, if we're so great why are we still committing such atrocities ourselves? To answer " But look at Pakistan and India!" seems a bit pointless.

isn't this a bit over the top? if you presume you voted for a sane person you should at least expect that person to be reasonably moral even if he wants to stay in power? What better to get re-voted then your country doing well?
The fact that ecology isn't on the voting agenda is apparantly because the voter doesn't care enough, instead of the candidate. If saying "i'll give you all wellfare, a job, money and a future" keeps giving people more votes then "i'm gonna create the cleanest country in the world" then can you blame the candidate for saying it?

Of course not. Especially since it's easier to fiddle the figures to show how suddenly everyone's got a job and more money, etc (I used to work in the civil service) than actually try to become the not-MOST-polluting country in the world. It's also easy to renege on your campaign and election promises once in power with a bit of spinnage.

But my point was that governments don't act in the interest of the greater good without incentive. You seem to be making my point

 

[VaMpY]

More and more i hear in the media credible reports of active use of torture by the americans, both in iraq and at home.Now if u take into acount all the other shit they do...

Am i the only 1 thinking "how long do we stand for this shite? the yanks arent all powerfull, we(europe) could make them bleed if we wanted.



discuss

errrrrrr Torture is a part of war all sides do it.....including us (UK) remember the pictures in the SUN newspaper iraqi prisoners slung up over a forklift trunk for beatings....

saddam has probably been deprived of sleep since he was captured and been pumped so full of truth drugs his mind will probably be mushy peas by now ....shit happens

might as well add the story reported on the bbc about an iraqi dipped in an acid bath by saddams men...his back looked like, well jelly.... surpised he even survived

man the stories are endless from all sides........

we are just minipulated everyday by the media........sorry but its just spin spin spin

 

[apex]

Bowling for Columbine.

politics is something so dirty im not touchin it with a 15 foot pole....

 

[jwer_NL]

But these aren't our countries. We don't vote for their governements, pay their taxes or suffer their hell. I can't see any point in comparing our respective ethoi unless we simply want to see how better off we are than they. Whereas I think we should be striving to be better off than we are.

For instance, if we're so great why are we still committing such atrocities ourselves? To answer " But look at Pakistan and India!" seems a bit pointless.

I think we fully agree on that then Hecty, so let me point out the start of this thread then....

the yanks arent all powerfull, we(europe) could make them bleed if we wanted.

Now as far as i know you or me never lived in the USA, nor where ever yanks. This thread was (for me) about all the bad things the USA did and to inflict something like sanctions on them. And like you say right there and then, who are we to judge the USA right? good.

Of course not. Especially since it's easier to fiddle the figures to show how suddenly everyone's got a job and more money, etc (I used to work in the civil service) than actually try to become the not-MOST-polluting country in the world. It's also easy to renege on your campaign and election promises once in power with a bit of spinnage.

But my point was that governments don't act in the interest of the greater good without incentive. You seem to be making my point

Wouldn't the "spinnage" take each other out in the longer run? You know the sitting government isn't the only one trying to get into a new one, and if they did bad, i'm pretty sure the opposition would be quick to capatalise with some numbers of their own. Even if the dum voters can't seem to pinch through the "lies" (i.e. brushed up numbers) wouldn't they be bombarded with "lies" from the opposition as well and therefore straightened out and then in the end lean towards the party they really wanna lean to? Off course making yourself look good is important, but it's not all lies and numbers that make or break a party (imo it's more about charisma and looks then anything else really)

 

[Gen76]

Ive been discussing USA on forums for years now and i just dont get y some ppl cant seem to connect the dots.Im a socialist,but i dont think of myself as a radical.I just happen to think that the ideas of socialism and being fair and true to our fellow man is somehting worth striving for.Shouldnt we then do our best to hinder the ppl who care not about anything but themselves and have no problem doing it on the suffering of others?

 

[jwer_NL]

.Shouldnt we then do our best to hinder the ppl who care not about anything but themselves and have no problem doing it on the suffering of others?

Sure, so where's your thread then about China? ivory coast? iran? mozambique? nigeria? ..?..?..? need i go on?

and where was the one about Iraq?

why is this thread about the USA and not about all the other, and usually worse country's in the world?