Well it may have been mini from 2001-2005 but nowadays its mainly sniper imo on assault and not minigun.
Change to the TIW in LeagueAS?
- Thread starter uZi
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gg leave at it is, mini and pulse is way to weak in DM anyway just use shock, rl, flack and sniper. If mini and pulse a bit stronger as before much more fun to play dm. Sooo if you change the randomness in assault mini its NOT good, because you will have a weeker minigun 
K I'm gonna throw out a bunch of information for yall here about the original minigun and pulse settings, as well as the cb12 settings. I can't give you the settings and changes from the league assault mod because those files are protected. (I wonder why, by the way?)
First, let's start of with what tickrate is and how it interacts with weapons. Read about that here:
http://wiki.unrealadmin.org/Netspeed_Tutorial_(UT)#What_is_Tickrate.3F
Basically, higher tickrate on servers causes irregular function calls for the minigun resulting in an abnormal and UNDESIRED increase in the rate of fire and thus overly powerful.
In addition, the pulse rifle secondary has a damage bonus of like 10.4dmg whenever one of it's nine segments makes contact with a player. Thus, if you can change the segments that hit the player very quickly, you can get the 10.4 damage bonus each time and deal a LOT of daamge quickly. Where tickrate comes in is that the beam not only extends faster with higher tickrate, but if the tickrate is higher then the server chceks more times a second that the beam has changed segements or not, which can lead to even more damage. I think that the tickrate part is overpowered, but I believe the damage should be kept when switching segments. However, CB12 does away with both, and now the minigun is superior to the pulse because it does about the same damage with no range limitation. Shouldn't the weapon with less range do noticably more damage?
Originally (taken form the minigun2 clas sfile from the botpack.u) the minigun was like this:
Primary:
-Rate of fire: 6.667 bullets per second on a 20 tickrate server @ 9+rand(6) damage = 9-14. (the rand function in the C language is 0 to (max-1). HOWEVER!!! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT: DUE TO UT'S HARDCORE MODE ALL DAMAGE IS MULTIPLIED BY 1.5!!!! (OR 50% MORE DAMAGE). If you don't believe me, please start a practice session with no mods running in hardcore mode. 2 shock primaries will kill someone. With hardcore mode off, 2 shock primes won't kill someone. (Yes I realize that this does not mean the damage increase is 50%, but I'm telling you right now that it is, this is just to illustrate that there is a difference. Notice also that you don't jump as high.) This effectively makes the damage on the minigun 13-21 damage per bullet!!!!
Secondary:
-Rate of fire: 10 bullets per second on a 20 tickrate server @ 13-21 damage a bullet!!!
With the CB12 mutator(TIW), the damage on the minigun is decreased, but the rate of fire was increased. In addition, momentum transfer was completely nullified which eliminates lockdown.
The primary fire for cb12 minigun:
7.5 shots per second @ 8+rand(6) damage = 8-13 which is 12-19.5 damage after hardcore damage additions. (wchich is 2.5 damage less per bullet on average.)
The secondary fire for cb12:
11 bullets per second @ 12-19.5 damage.
Looking at the stats it looks like there really shouldn't be that much of a damage difference. However we've all played with the mutator on and off, and we all know there IS MOST DEFINATELY A DIFFERENCE. This is because the original standard tickrate was 20 for ut. When you compare the 20 tickrate original mini to the tiw mini, it seems to be about the same. This huge difference comes in to play because hardly any servers run off of 20 tickrate anymore. Due to the increased capacity in connection speeds, the clients can handle the increase in volume of information sent out due to higher tickrates, and thus gives us smoother gameplay....at the cost of the minigun and pulse acting irregularily.
To anyone who has seen (And can understand the code) TIW mini only makes the mini as effective as it should have been in the first place However, assault players have grown so attached to their miniguns, that this is a rude awakening for them that they refuse to accept. Furthermore, there is minimal skill in minigunning someone, especially when it does retarded damage at a retarded rate. Personally, I feel that the minigun does too much damage right now, and that TIW will make it do too little damage, forcing the game to be practically sniper assault. I propose a middle ground that can be negotiated amoung the assault population.
I have to go to class, but I think that's about all I wanted to say anyway. And to those who say minigunning takes a lot of skill...when's the last time you've seen a truly leet ut movie made up of mostly minigun frags? It takes a little skill, but not much, especially not with lockdown. (which due to uzi's request I will not post about)
First, let's start of with what tickrate is and how it interacts with weapons. Read about that here:
http://wiki.unrealadmin.org/Netspeed_Tutorial_(UT)#What_is_Tickrate.3F
Basically, higher tickrate on servers causes irregular function calls for the minigun resulting in an abnormal and UNDESIRED increase in the rate of fire and thus overly powerful.
In addition, the pulse rifle secondary has a damage bonus of like 10.4dmg whenever one of it's nine segments makes contact with a player. Thus, if you can change the segments that hit the player very quickly, you can get the 10.4 damage bonus each time and deal a LOT of daamge quickly. Where tickrate comes in is that the beam not only extends faster with higher tickrate, but if the tickrate is higher then the server chceks more times a second that the beam has changed segements or not, which can lead to even more damage. I think that the tickrate part is overpowered, but I believe the damage should be kept when switching segments. However, CB12 does away with both, and now the minigun is superior to the pulse because it does about the same damage with no range limitation. Shouldn't the weapon with less range do noticably more damage?
Originally (taken form the minigun2 clas sfile from the botpack.u) the minigun was like this:
Primary:
-Rate of fire: 6.667 bullets per second on a 20 tickrate server @ 9+rand(6) damage = 9-14. (the rand function in the C language is 0 to (max-1). HOWEVER!!! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT: DUE TO UT'S HARDCORE MODE ALL DAMAGE IS MULTIPLIED BY 1.5!!!! (OR 50% MORE DAMAGE). If you don't believe me, please start a practice session with no mods running in hardcore mode. 2 shock primaries will kill someone. With hardcore mode off, 2 shock primes won't kill someone. (Yes I realize that this does not mean the damage increase is 50%, but I'm telling you right now that it is, this is just to illustrate that there is a difference. Notice also that you don't jump as high.) This effectively makes the damage on the minigun 13-21 damage per bullet!!!!
Secondary:
-Rate of fire: 10 bullets per second on a 20 tickrate server @ 13-21 damage a bullet!!!
With the CB12 mutator(TIW), the damage on the minigun is decreased, but the rate of fire was increased. In addition, momentum transfer was completely nullified which eliminates lockdown.
The primary fire for cb12 minigun:
7.5 shots per second @ 8+rand(6) damage = 8-13 which is 12-19.5 damage after hardcore damage additions. (wchich is 2.5 damage less per bullet on average.)
The secondary fire for cb12:
11 bullets per second @ 12-19.5 damage.
Looking at the stats it looks like there really shouldn't be that much of a damage difference. However we've all played with the mutator on and off, and we all know there IS MOST DEFINATELY A DIFFERENCE. This is because the original standard tickrate was 20 for ut. When you compare the 20 tickrate original mini to the tiw mini, it seems to be about the same. This huge difference comes in to play because hardly any servers run off of 20 tickrate anymore. Due to the increased capacity in connection speeds, the clients can handle the increase in volume of information sent out due to higher tickrates, and thus gives us smoother gameplay....at the cost of the minigun and pulse acting irregularily.
To anyone who has seen (And can understand the code) TIW mini only makes the mini as effective as it should have been in the first place However, assault players have grown so attached to their miniguns, that this is a rude awakening for them that they refuse to accept. Furthermore, there is minimal skill in minigunning someone, especially when it does retarded damage at a retarded rate. Personally, I feel that the minigun does too much damage right now, and that TIW will make it do too little damage, forcing the game to be practically sniper assault. I propose a middle ground that can be negotiated amoung the assault population.
I have to go to class, but I think that's about all I wanted to say anyway. And to those who say minigunning takes a lot of skill...when's the last time you've seen a truly leet ut movie made up of mostly minigun frags? It takes a little skill, but not much, especially not with lockdown. (which due to uzi's request I will not post about)
I think it's easy to see the two extremes, people that think mini is all about skill, and are really afraid to mess with it, and people that think it's no skill whatsoever, and it should be reduced to nothing relatively speaking. As usual, extremes are fairly logical, so I think what Uzi is proposing makes sense, falling somewhere in the middle. I have tried both CB12 and no TIW, and suffered what has been said, dying in 1-2 seconds (or being called mini-whore), and taking forever to kill with mini, so relying on sniper much more (hence being called sniper whore). Why not remove as much of randomness as possible, reduce damage to a certain extent and shoot for middle ground? If you are highly skilled with mini, you’ll still be able to use it in your advantage, if not, you will appreciate the possibility to a more open game.
As far as why these two weapons are the most used during matches, though I agree they are fairly common in most assault maps, I think it’s also because they are the most realistic weapons, hence most useful (together with enforcers). I see assault as the UT mod closest to reality, in terms of both game play / objectives (ignoring launches of course, which came about as a way to avoid choke points and open up maps) and maps/placement, and that is why I like assault in the first place. Hence, weapons closest to reality come of better use, while unrealistic weapons fade away.
To go back to the point of the post, doing what Uzi is proposing should have no bad side effects, and would be great to start testing it as soon as it can be done.
As far as why these two weapons are the most used during matches, though I agree they are fairly common in most assault maps, I think it’s also because they are the most realistic weapons, hence most useful (together with enforcers). I see assault as the UT mod closest to reality, in terms of both game play / objectives (ignoring launches of course, which came about as a way to avoid choke points and open up maps) and maps/placement, and that is why I like assault in the first place. Hence, weapons closest to reality come of better use, while unrealistic weapons fade away.
To go back to the point of the post, doing what Uzi is proposing should have no bad side effects, and would be great to start testing it as soon as it can be done.
Within a few days of our conversation Uzi, I had already created a minigun class of which has a less random fluctuation, while still trying to maintain a reasonable rate to equate as close as possible to a vanilla minigun (i.e. not to nerf it) - it was a mixture of the pure and leagueAS versions.
I still don't have Internet at home, and won't do until the start of next month (activations are slow in my area atm
), so won't be able to get a compiled version out until then I expect.
I still don't have Internet at home, and won't do until the start of next month (activations are slow in my area atm
), so won't be able to get a compiled version out until then I expect.The reason why minigun is so popular in assault is because of the following, not because it is the most realistic...especially not in a game with "Unreal" in it's name.
A) it's the only mod in which it hasn't been "nerfed," when in reality CB12 only restores it to the state it was inteded to operate in.
B) It's the perfect weapon for assault, the attacking team has some goal they have to get to. Essentially, the entire defense knows where the entire offense is going. Not to mention, the offense has the journey from their spawn to the objective, which in some cases can be lengthy. For example, spawn to generator on ballistic. The mini is most powerful in these situations because there is not really an abundance of health for the offense to pick up. Thus, the defense just needs to continue to push forward with minigun and put some damage on the offense. Then, when they respawn, finish them off. This is particularily useful on ballistic where it is very open and you can't really trick the defense by doubling back around obstacles etc.
In a mod like capture the flag, there is still a signle destination for the offense to get to (the flag) and only a finite number of places to enter the enemy base at... but you have to kill the enemy fast because if you don't they will just translocate around your base picking up the health before they go for the flag. Minigunning someone translocating isn't very effective. Planting a shock combo on their translocator is, and a lot harder to do than holding the trigger on someone who is limited to running and dodging. .
In assault, you can't translocate around, and you have some objective to make you way to, thus giving you a (for the most part) predetermined and predictable path. This makes you a very easy target for the minigun. Add on top of that the fact that there's practically no health for you to pick up and it's not hard to see why the minigun is the perfect wepaon. Just slowly drain the attacker's life on their journey to the objective, simple as that.
It would be very interesting to see how many people calling the minigun a noobish weapon have experience playing other mods of UT competitively. I would bet it would be a high percentage of them.
A) it's the only mod in which it hasn't been "nerfed," when in reality CB12 only restores it to the state it was inteded to operate in.
B) It's the perfect weapon for assault, the attacking team has some goal they have to get to. Essentially, the entire defense knows where the entire offense is going. Not to mention, the offense has the journey from their spawn to the objective, which in some cases can be lengthy. For example, spawn to generator on ballistic. The mini is most powerful in these situations because there is not really an abundance of health for the offense to pick up. Thus, the defense just needs to continue to push forward with minigun and put some damage on the offense. Then, when they respawn, finish them off. This is particularily useful on ballistic where it is very open and you can't really trick the defense by doubling back around obstacles etc.
In a mod like capture the flag, there is still a signle destination for the offense to get to (the flag) and only a finite number of places to enter the enemy base at... but you have to kill the enemy fast because if you don't they will just translocate around your base picking up the health before they go for the flag. Minigunning someone translocating isn't very effective. Planting a shock combo on their translocator is, and a lot harder to do than holding the trigger on someone who is limited to running and dodging. .
In assault, you can't translocate around, and you have some objective to make you way to, thus giving you a (for the most part) predetermined and predictable path. This makes you a very easy target for the minigun. Add on top of that the fact that there's practically no health for you to pick up and it's not hard to see why the minigun is the perfect wepaon. Just slowly drain the attacker's life on their journey to the objective, simple as that.
It would be very interesting to see how many people calling the minigun a noobish weapon have experience playing other mods of UT competitively. I would bet it would be a high percentage of them.
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Well first I agree with uzi, a change in randomness could be welcomed because even if yes sometimes even I managed to kill ppl fast and get a successfull run (wich is very fun), im a lot more pissed about dying in literally less then 1.0 second when i have 100 hp.
Sry to bring it up AGAIN uzi but minigun is 1 weapon and lockdown is a big part of it.
we ARE talking about the minigun not only the damage...
i won't say i know stuff about how it all works, cuz i don't, but I will give my 2 cents on the minigun issue since i've been playing UT for a while.
if i remember correctly there was a huge change in #naat pugbot a lil more then a year ago when TIW minigun was introduced, and the way it was introduced to me, it was only called TIW, even when you picked it on the ground it would say "You picked the TIW minigun". All I know is that it did reduce the damage output (dunno what it nerfed rof or base damage or random damage) AND abolished the lockdown.
I love(d) that new TIW minigun primarily because i found lockdown was gay, the most blatant example i remember seeing on naat b4 TIW was an assaulter with belt on top of the boot's house in bridge that just ran close to the edge and dodged to land inside base, a defender barely hit him with mini when he was in the air and the assaulter fell straight to the ground even if the gap at that place is like 1/2 of a dodge distance....
I know im not like most assaulters I favor moving skills using the mind over running around and letting the best fragger win. So a blatant and rigged movement interference for me is unacceptable. Even if sniper locksdown i'd say its ok because of the rate of fire but it is just sooo ez to lockdown with mini that it makes it rigged imho.
coming back to my lil #naat story, I think lenneth and Squirrel will both agree with me that this reduced minigun usage alot from top players with low pings, and did indeed favor the use of sniper, dbl enforcers and to a lesser extent shock. Wich pissed off some other players because minigun now couldnt defeat sniper in fight with very skilled players.
personally i didnt notice a huge difference with mini but i've never been, and will never be a top fragger. Even with that I still used minigun in #naat pugs and found it still to be a very usefull weapon, granted it wouldnt have won me a fight with a better opponent using sniper, but I still mowed down people with low health, and killed pretty fast with it at close range. (even without lockdown).
the way I feel it, guns are there to do damage not lock people down, yesterday I faced XR on lavafort and i hid behind the box where the ripper is and he stopped my hammerjump dead on in the air.... i tried again 1 min later or so jumping on the top of the box to be sure to make it and again he fucking made me fall on the ground.....
theres nothing skilled about that, I knew i would take damage but imho that should be it, minigun shouldnt be basically a "lockdown ray" we're pingwhores can say HAHA you wanna use your brain and try to bypass me, well GET DOWN BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO.
hammerjumps already take 54 health away, it should be fair enough that the only way to kill people jumping is to put enough damage in them so they die (i.e. shock combo or sniper), not put ur xhair on them and make them fall flat on the ground....
so to resume my point of view:
- in favor of reducing the random factor of minigun
- strong desire to see lockdown removed of the minigun
Sry to bring it up AGAIN uzi but minigun is 1 weapon and lockdown is a big part of it.
we ARE talking about the minigun not only the damage...
i won't say i know stuff about how it all works, cuz i don't, but I will give my 2 cents on the minigun issue since i've been playing UT for a while.
if i remember correctly there was a huge change in #naat pugbot a lil more then a year ago when TIW minigun was introduced, and the way it was introduced to me, it was only called TIW, even when you picked it on the ground it would say "You picked the TIW minigun". All I know is that it did reduce the damage output (dunno what it nerfed rof or base damage or random damage) AND abolished the lockdown.
I love(d) that new TIW minigun primarily because i found lockdown was gay, the most blatant example i remember seeing on naat b4 TIW was an assaulter with belt on top of the boot's house in bridge that just ran close to the edge and dodged to land inside base, a defender barely hit him with mini when he was in the air and the assaulter fell straight to the ground even if the gap at that place is like 1/2 of a dodge distance....
I know im not like most assaulters I favor moving skills using the mind over running around and letting the best fragger win. So a blatant and rigged movement interference for me is unacceptable. Even if sniper locksdown i'd say its ok because of the rate of fire but it is just sooo ez to lockdown with mini that it makes it rigged imho.
coming back to my lil #naat story, I think lenneth and Squirrel will both agree with me that this reduced minigun usage alot from top players with low pings, and did indeed favor the use of sniper, dbl enforcers and to a lesser extent shock. Wich pissed off some other players because minigun now couldnt defeat sniper in fight with very skilled players.
personally i didnt notice a huge difference with mini but i've never been, and will never be a top fragger. Even with that I still used minigun in #naat pugs and found it still to be a very usefull weapon, granted it wouldnt have won me a fight with a better opponent using sniper, but I still mowed down people with low health, and killed pretty fast with it at close range. (even without lockdown).
the way I feel it, guns are there to do damage not lock people down, yesterday I faced XR on lavafort and i hid behind the box where the ripper is and he stopped my hammerjump dead on in the air.... i tried again 1 min later or so jumping on the top of the box to be sure to make it and again he fucking made me fall on the ground.....
theres nothing skilled about that, I knew i would take damage but imho that should be it, minigun shouldnt be basically a "lockdown ray" we're pingwhores can say HAHA you wanna use your brain and try to bypass me, well GET DOWN BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO.
hammerjumps already take 54 health away, it should be fair enough that the only way to kill people jumping is to put enough damage in them so they die (i.e. shock combo or sniper), not put ur xhair on them and make them fall flat on the ground....
so to resume my point of view:
- in favor of reducing the random factor of minigun
- strong desire to see lockdown removed of the minigun
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Finally some people who actually understand a bit about it and have played with TIW on!!! (altho sounds like #naat use quite an old version - one which i personally thought was good)
I didn't bring up the pulse because it doesnt really feature in assault.. only a few maps have a pulse in a place that its useful.. also its a very range limited weapon and so i think it should do more damage
Since lockdown has been brought up.. yeah i agree - its stupid that you cannot jump/dodge at all under fire.. this is due to the excessive amount of the momentum forced on the player when the mini hits.. maybe reduce that, not get rid of it.. but reduce it so that hammer jumping while under mini fire is still possible.. but not as effective - i watched that game html.. and tbh it was a bit silly you'd do a full hammer jump and barely go higher than a normal jump.. tis a bit silly :S
edit: forgot to mention.. n1 timo - im up for testing as soon as you can sort your conn out
I didn't bring up the pulse because it doesnt really feature in assault.. only a few maps have a pulse in a place that its useful.. also its a very range limited weapon and so i think it should do more damage
Since lockdown has been brought up.. yeah i agree - its stupid that you cannot jump/dodge at all under fire.. this is due to the excessive amount of the momentum forced on the player when the mini hits.. maybe reduce that, not get rid of it.. but reduce it so that hammer jumping while under mini fire is still possible.. but not as effective - i watched that game html.. and tbh it was a bit silly you'd do a full hammer jump and barely go higher than a normal jump.. tis a bit silly :S
edit: forgot to mention.. n1 timo - im up for testing as soon as you can sort your conn out
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it's quite funny to take lavaspam as exemple to reduce minigun power
it's like the very last weapons u would use to defend , after having blind spammed with all other
u guys whinne @ minigun but do not care about being flack spammed @ desert samsite or rox spammed @ warhead in balisitc.
all weapons can kill in one hit exept minigun/pulse , not to mention that they all can kill without even seeing ur enemy
yet u still think minigun is too strong ?
i don't get it tbh
it's like the very last weapons u would use to defend , after having blind spammed with all other
u guys whinne @ minigun but do not care about being flack spammed @ desert samsite or rox spammed @ warhead in balisitc.
all weapons can kill in one hit exept minigun/pulse , not to mention that they all can kill without even seeing ur enemy
yet u still think minigun is too strong ?
i don't get it tbh
lol opi it is about the killing power of the minigun and the annoying lockdown which gives you noc chance to kill the minigunner (in many cases...)
Can we make the minigun do more damage please? Because I can only minigun down attackers with armor in less then a second.
I just loooove when people tries to do hammerjump tricks because I just switch to mini and prrt the hammerjumping-n00bs in 0.1 seconds, they're dead almost before I press fire hihi. Oh and when they try to reach tunnels on riverbed3 and I'm on the other side of the map, I just mini from there with alternate fire making big circles and everything dies. On golgothaAL they can't even exit the siege tower when I minigun in that general direction but I was thinking maybe if we increase damage on mini I can prrt them before they even respawn.
New tactics: Launch a minigunner straight up in the air and he can just spray bullets everywhere. When they hit the ground it'll be like redeemers coming out of the sky. Or maybe everyone with miniguns could stand still making 360's all day killing everybody, that would pwn YEAH!
/just got owned by prrt
I just loooove when people tries to do hammerjump tricks because I just switch to mini and prrt the hammerjumping-n00bs in 0.1 seconds, they're dead almost before I press fire hihi. Oh and when they try to reach tunnels on riverbed3 and I'm on the other side of the map, I just mini from there with alternate fire making big circles and everything dies. On golgothaAL they can't even exit the siege tower when I minigun in that general direction but I was thinking maybe if we increase damage on mini I can prrt them before they even respawn.
New tactics: Launch a minigunner straight up in the air and he can just spray bullets everywhere. When they hit the ground it'll be like redeemers coming out of the sky. Or maybe everyone with miniguns could stand still making 360's all day killing everybody, that would pwn YEAH!
/just got owned by prrt
Well back in old IDC times ... im telling you like a few years ago ... when we had like 200 F1 pings in portugal we were a Flack + minigun clan ... why because of what MC says in the second post of this thread ...
Flack and Minigun well you can just use them for spam ... and well most of times you always get one or two in the way ...
After that our pings became abit lower ... and lower till today that we ping 60 to 90 ( depending on ISP and type of internet Cable or DSL or Optic 256 512 2 4 20 30 or 50 MB conections ) and now we are starting to use sniper lol ( something msot of us never used because of lag lol )
We all know the changes on LeagueAS system had some good points and some bad points ... and we also know that some ppl left because of those bad points one of them the mini issue ...
So well i agree with Uzi MC and all who say we can give it a try ...
Flack and Minigun well you can just use them for spam ... and well most of times you always get one or two in the way ...
After that our pings became abit lower ... and lower till today that we ping 60 to 90 ( depending on ISP and type of internet Cable or DSL or Optic 256 512 2 4 20 30 or 50 MB conections ) and now we are starting to use sniper lol ( something msot of us never used because of lag lol )
We all know the changes on LeagueAS system had some good points and some bad points ... and we also know that some ppl left because of those bad points one of them the mini issue ...
So well i agree with Uzi MC and all who say we can give it a try ...
Finally someone with a decent idea. Now most as players love the minigun as much as a a monkey loves a banana it's been rediculous for years now. Back in mi5 all we did was minigun all the time. Since than assault has, aside from some new launches and maps, basically grown ZILCH! Now I've given up on gettin CB settings into assault since that would require me to learn to aim at least half properly again I definitly applaud this suggestion. My only regret is that some idiot can't instantly kill me while he's aiming at my teamm8 and sweeps over me for a split second. Hell can we get this tried out and implemented yesterday?
On the other hand.. luck goes both ways wich makes this change just as balanced as things are right now. So it doesnt really matter at all and maybe we shouldn't even bother. Some new maps without large open fields and sniper/mini at every spawnpoint would bring a lot more to the community imo. Maybe force as players to be more allround regarding weapons instead of knowing 1 or 2.
bleh
On the other hand.. luck goes both ways wich makes this change just as balanced as things are right now. So it doesnt really matter at all and maybe we shouldn't even bother. Some new maps without large open fields and sniper/mini at every spawnpoint would bring a lot more to the community imo. Maybe force as players to be more allround regarding weapons instead of knowing 1 or 2.
bleh