Gay Marriage

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ProPain said:
But since all say is "i hate gays cos it aint natural" then you are being

Idiocy A+++

Read two or three posts above. I "dislike" them, which is a good bit less than hating. If you actually had some kind of intelligence and didn't just spout shit without reading my posts properly, I would respect your answers.
 
Mido said:
Well said... All this hate too gay people suprises me, why can't u respect ppl as they are? And as for the marriage, why not just respect gays when they want to get married if they love eachother?

The more I read threads like this, the more I become convinved of the inherent truth in Dawinism and the Gaia theory. My own personal view is that human beings have this inherent trait of viewing themselves as somehow unaffected by the natural world and the "baser instincts".

In fact, any person with any scientific experience at all would realise one inherent truth:

All of the big "social" problems of today are simply the outward physical manifestations of genetic occurences designed to ensure balance in a self-regulating organism, just like we were all taught in chemistry that all elements are striving towards "stable noble-gas configuration".

Crime, drug abuse, poverty, (perceived increase in the rate of) homosexuality - all the normal, natural "side effects" one would expect in a closed system where one organism has achieved dominance and is crowding out all else and consuming all the natural resources faster than the rate of natural replenishment.

This has been my own personal view for a long time, supported along the way by ad-hoc observations. But from Ian's telegraph article, it appears that it is a viewpoint which is gaining increasing support and validity.

Now before anyone starts in with the predictable cries of "Nazi scientists thought like you do.." and so on, take the trouble to read what I've actually said. Namely - "I expect to see these things in an overpopulated world". It is all nature's way of keeping populations in check - just like disease and old age. I am not saying "These are things which we should just accept and not try to do anything about". Of course we should try and do something about drug abuse, crime, etc and turn everyone into peaceful, co-operating, tax-paying, shag-happy citizens looking to advance the human race. That is another way to reach that "stable noble-gas configuration". It's simply a less rapacious, less Occam's Razor way of doing it than that of old mother nature.

Oh and Ian - you might not prompt such vitriolic replies from other people if you could moderate your language from "all religious people are moronic nut-case imbeciles" to something along the lines of "i am not religious because in my view, the existence of a "higher being" is unlikely because of x,y & z, but if other people want to belive in this, then, as they are citizens in our democratic country, they have this right and I will try not to come across as narrow-minded and prejudiced myself. I believe in live and let live, and that our respective rights to swing our fists end where the other person's nose begins."
 
kooma said:
What I really don't understand is how education can be a factor in one's sexual orientation. Does less education equal more prone to homosexuality? By that logic, third world countries should be empty of people already. If one could choose to be homosexual, one should be able to choose not to be in an instant.
Ive not stated that intelligence is a factor to one becoming gay or not, you made that up,

I referred to education more in a way of what parents give you, rules about life, sexuality and how they act towards same gendered people and the like (I hope you get my now!). Knowledgable education (or whatever you call it.. school and stuff) wasnt really what I was referring to.

In general that stuff about chromosomes may sound allright, like men have an X chromosome by nature, so somewhere in them rests the woman, who likes men, so men can become gay.
Unfortunately this theory is terribly crushed by the fact that there also happen to be homosexual women, who dont have an Y chromosome though.

If you bring up another theory about the hormone level in one's body I would think that people who kiss or intercourse lots would become homosexuals, too, for being exposed to the other sex's hormones often. Now I dont have facts on that but I strongly doubt thats the case.
 
Mido said:
why can't u respect ppl as they are? And as for the marriage, why not just respect gays when they want to get married if they love each other?
I dont want to see children raised by a homosexual couple. And IMO allowing Marriage already SUGGESTS they should adopt a child.

Maybe Im too young to understand the meaning of marriage, but living together or maybe getting engaged is a great expression of love, whereas marriage (coupled with the divorcement ratios..) is in my eyes a waste of money for the sole purpose of love.
Marrying however for the sake of founding a family with children is appropriate, because I believe that married parrents are a much more solid family background and give children some comfortability.

I would call it a crime if a homosexual couple raised children.
 
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Thuringwethil said:
Oh and Ian - you might not prompt such vitriolic replies from other people if you could moderate your language from "all religious people are moronic nut-case imbeciles" to something along the lines of "i am not religious because in my view, the existence of a "higher being" is unlikely because of x,y & z, but if other people want to belive in this, then, as they are citizens in our democratic country, they have this right and I will try not to come across as narrow-minded and prejudiced myself. I believe in live and let live, and that our respective rights to swing our fists end where the other person's nose begins."

Originally Posted by Mughi
I can accept that it is your opinion, but that doesnt mean I shouldnt try and point out why I think it is wrong.
I cannot accept that people "hate" other people for absolutely no reason, just because. And when the reasons for hating someone have absolutely no backing, of course it should be pointed out.


catched in 1 post :D

plus what sobo is saying is what i said all along, marriage is for religious people who are having a classical male-female relationship
if gay people wanna have a sort of same bond they can call it what ever they like, but not marriage.
 
Thuringwethil said:
Oh and Ian - you might not prompt such vitriolic replies from other people if you could moderate your language from "all religious people are moronic nut-case imbeciles"

Not what I said at all. A great many people who believe in a fantasy god are actually quite intelligent. It doesn't however, make the beliefe any less stupid. One of the guys I knew at University holds a degree in Bioscience and Biotechnology - he's a pharmacist now. That didn't stop him from shooting a nail through his hand whilst blind drunk for a dare.

Smart people can do mindnumbingly stupid things - like believing in a god, for instance. Arguably, shooting a nail through your hand will do less damage to your life than making your decisions on the basis of what the voices in yoru head say ;)

I think this is worth a topic of it's own, as the whole "god" nonsense really doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
 
JACKEL said:
marriage is for religious people who are having a classical male-female relationship
if gay people wanna have a sort of same bond they can call it what ever they like, but not marriage.
OK, we have already all agreed (mostly :rolleyes: ) that the word "marriage" is what most people seem to have the hang up about and that (mostly :rolleyes: ) people dont have objection to same sex couples having the same rights as different sex couples and thats fair enough

... BUT ...

:shout:

marriage is not for the religious!

No, I dont have proof to hand, and asides from googling it wouldnt be sure where to start but I am fairly sure that marriage existed before christianity :p: Or even that it was a concept outwith religion before it was hijacked by religion. Even if it wasnt, marriage is now for couples some of whom choose to perform the ritual in a church/mosque/synagogue/forest/whatever with a preist/immam/rabbi/preistess/whoever running it, but not all :p:

Marriage is not for the religious :p:
 
sobo said:
I referred to education more in a way of what parents give you, rules about life, sexuality and how they act towards same gendered people and the like (I hope you get my now!).

Ahhhh, yes. My Grandfather was a racist bastard, who told me and my dad that "ni**ers should be shot, and so should anyone that tries to marry one". My father IGNORED the bullshit his parents gave him, and decided to make up his own mind. He still didn't like gays though - he hated gays, and tried to tell me that too - it wrked for a few years, then I made up my own mind, got to know a couple of gay guys and realised that just like my grandfather's racism, the father's homophobia was HORSESHIT.

If your parents brought you up to think people are abnormal and should be feared and mistructed because they are not like you, that's a real shame. If you choose to go along with it, rather than using your own mind, that's disgraceful.

sobo said:
In general that stuff about chromosomes may sound allright, like men have an X chromosome by nature, so somewhere in them rests the woman, who likes men, so men can become gay.

Yeah, funny how stuff sounds good when you KNow what you are talking about, rather than talking out of your ass. That "theory" is backed by current research carried out in different universities across the world.

sobo said:
Unfortunately this theory is terribly crushed by the fact that there also happen to be homosexual women, who dont have an Y chromosome though.

Sobo, switch your brain on before responding. what did I say? homosexuality is believed to appear on the *X* Chromosome - the female one. Women have 2 X choromosomes, which might suggest that women are more likley to be homosexual than men... which they are. Isn't Science fun?

sobo said:
If you bring up another theory about the hormone level in one's body I would think that people who kiss or intercourse lots would become homosexuals, too, for being exposed to the other sex's hormones often. Now I dont have facts on that but I strongly doubt thats the case.

And this is what we get when people who don't have a clue what they are talking about make stuff up.

1) hormones do not cross over from one person's bloodstream to another during sex, let alone kissing
2) sexuality is *NOT* defined by hormone levels, it's the other way around
3) Men have the female hormone oestrogen in their bodies naturally (it helps with bone growth amongst other things) and Women have the male hormone testosteorone in their bodies naturally.

Seriously, this is like a never ending parade of ignorance. PLEASE read a book before spouting these theories - you are only embarrasing yourself by posting nonsense.

I.
 
I think this is worth a topic of it's own, as the whole "god" nonsense really doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

Marriage is a religeous process, or atleast was/should be. If you don't believe in God imo you shouldn't get married, because it means nothing to you. Like also if you don't believe in god you shouldnt celebrate christmas because, again it means nothing to you.
You can't disregard religeon for a discussion on marriage cos thats what it is :poke:
 
sobo said:
I referred to education more in a way of what parents give you, rules about life, sexuality and how they act towards same gendered people and the like (I hope you get my now!). Knowledgable education (or whatever you call it.. school and stuff) wasnt really what I was referring to.

I am actually rather interested in some examples of this sobo ... all I can think of is things like being taught by your parents that being gay is OK - execpt there are HUGE numbers of people who are terrified of coming out to their parents, numerous people shunned by family after they find out, so I dont think it could be that.

Or boys given dolls to play with rather than action men type things, but there are many cases of parents trying to "butch" up their kid when he starts acting a little on the feminine side.

I really truely cant think of many examples of what this could be.

My mother couldnt care less about a persons sexuality, my father is a complete homophobe and has the full repetoire of "shirtlifters", "shitstabbers" and so on when refering to "poofters". I played with the boys mostly at school, I have a many more male friends than female friends, I have chosen a male dominated profession, hell, I play a male dominated game by choice! I dont think that I have made a conscious decision about these things, more that I chose them because they suited my personality. I am married in a conventional male - female (non-religious :p: ) partnership. From what you have said I am a prime candiate for both straight and gay, depending on which part of my experiences you look at.
 
Mushroomhead said:
Marriage is a religeous process, or atleast was/should be.

Nonsense. Marriage is a *CIVIL* process, a legal recognition of your relationship in the eyes of the state. The only reason the churches have anything to dow tih it at all is down to how involved they used to be in the business of the state.

Mushroomhead said:
If you don't believe in God imo you shouldn't get married, because it means nothing to you.

horseshit. I am married, and it menas a helluva lot to me - more than anything else in my life. I don't believe in god. get over it.

Mushroomhead said:
Like also if you don't believe in god you shouldnt celebrate christmas because, again it means nothing to you. You can't disregard religeon for a discussion on marriage cos thats what it is :poke:

BWAHHAHAHHHAHHHAHHAAAA!!!

Christmas?? christmas has NOTHING to do with God. Christmas is the old saturnalia, observance of the Winter Solstice. It's a farming tradition, nothing more - yule logs (yule trees dont even GROW in palestine), holly wreaths, christmas trees, santa claus. giving of gifts, big parties...

It has *nothing* to do with Christianity - the church just wasn't able to stamp it out, so tried to take it over.

For the record, if jesus even existed, he was born in September, not December.
 
Wintermute said:
Nonsense. Marriage is a *CIVIL* process, a legal recognition of your relationship in the eyes of the state. The only reason the churches have anything to dow tih it at all is down to how involved they used to be in the business of the state.



horseshit. I am married, and it menas a helluva lot to me - more than anything else in my life. I don't believe in god. get over it.



BWAHHAHAHHHAHHHAHHAAAA!!!

Christmas?? christmas has NOTHING to do with God. Christmas is the old saturnalia, observance of the Winter Solstice. It's a farming tradition, nothing more - yule logs (yule trees dont even GROW in palestine), holly wreaths, christmas trees, santa claus. giving of gifts, big parties...

It has *nothing* to do with Christianity - the church just wasn't able to stamp it out, so tried to take it over.

For the record, if jesus even existed, he was born in September, not December.

i had some respect for you before u started intertwining your points with immature remarks. I never said it was fact, just my oppinion, atleast on the gay issue there was predjudice for you to get angry at, now ur just whining cos someone has a different oppion to you.
 
Mushroomhead said:
Marriage is a religeous process, or atleast was/should be. If you don't believe in God imo you shouldn't get married, because it means nothing to you. Like also if you don't believe in god you shouldnt celebrate christmas because, again it means nothing to you.
You can't disregard religeon for a discussion on marriage cos thats what it is :poke:
LOL. :spit:

OK, seriously now.

I will start with christmas ... you do know its a pagan winter festival celebrating the death of the god and his rising again? Trees and wreaths and candles and lights are all part of the pagan-ness of it. Just like easter is also a spring festival celebrating fertitlity and the seeding of the new harvest.

Personally, I like celebrating the Saturnalia version of it - not coz Saturn is a great god, but it lasts a little longer and is all about nice food and drink and excess and enjoyment, I like that :)

Next, if you cant have a marriage without a belief in god (by which I assume you mean the christian god) what about jews and muslims? Or do they count too because they share a version of the same god? What about hindus? shintos? buddists?

I will happily agree that if you dont believe in a god you shouldnt get married in a church or whatever. But if you dont beleive in a god you shouldnt get married? LOL. You know its not a tradition of the church? It existed before the church, so there is no way you can state that people shouldnt get married. LOL.
 
Mushroomhead said:
i had some respect for you before u started intertwining your points with immature remarks. I never said it was fact, just my oppinion, atleast on the gay issue there was predjudice for you to get angry at, now ur just whining cos someone has a different oppion to you.

how else should I react? you said "If you don't believe in God imo you shouldn't get married, because it means nothing to you."

My marriage means more to me than the world. I'm not having you, or anyone else for that matter saying that it's meaningless just because I don't believe in their fantasy god.
 
Anni said:
:nod:
If u can ask ppl to respect gay ppl, would it be too much to ask u to respect religious ppl? :confused:

I respect a few religious people, but not for their religion. religion is a damn disease which has killed more people than cancer. it deserves *NO* respect.

I am a scientist by nature, I use my mind, and I want everyone else to do so as well - there is no evidence for a god. In the past of mankind we believed that thunder was angry gods, that no rain meant that god was angry and other such bullshit.

modern religion is no different - it's a hangover from cavemen, not something for rational and educated people to waste their time on.

Religion deserves *NO* respect, whatsoever.