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Minigun FAQ

Discussion in 'LeagueAS Mod' started by Polle, Sep 4, 2004.

  1. Polle

    Polle New Member

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    - Has the minigun been modified in any way since 135?

    Nope


    - Why do mini vary so much in power from server to server?

    Power variation in minigun is due to a bug (or at least bad design) in the original minigun code. Minipower is greatly dependant on tickrate and at the default tickrate of 20 power can be either devastating or weak.


    - What IS tickrate?

    Its the servers fps (frames per second). Tickrate determines how frequently a server updates its actors and sends the updated info to players.

    Read http://www.clanvikings.org/tnse/utstuff.html for a thorough explanation. Pls note that his minigun diagram is incorrect though. It still illustrates the jumps in power although the actual variations in power are much larger than the graph indicates.


    - Is the TIW mini that was used during 136 betas identical to the one used in clanbase?

    Nope, the clanbase minigun would be significantly weaker than the std minigun at tickrate 20 (assuming tick stability) and it removes the lockdown effect completely.

    With the latest revision of the leagueas TIW minigun we added a slight tickdependancy. During the tests it appeared that with a fixed bulletcount per second the mini would still become somewhat more powerful compared to other weapons (could be increased lockdown at higher trs or just that efficient miniusage is more dependent on frequent updates). So to counter this the bulletcount decreases slightly at higher tickrates but without the big jumps of the original mini.

    In the end TIW was dropped cause ppl couldnt agree on what the power of the new mini should be.


    - How powerful is the original mini?

    When ticks are > 50 ms (tr 20) you get 1 bullet/tick
    when ticks are < 50 ms (tr20) and > 30 ms (tr 33) you get 1 bullet every second tick
    when ticks are < 30 ms (tr 33 ) and > 21 ms (tr 47) you get 1 bullet every third tick
    and so on.

    An approximated formula for minipower is tickrate / [74/tickdelta] where tickdelta is the time between ticks (i.e 50 ms for tr 20) and the [] means the expression is rounded to nearest integer value. As tickrate approaches infinity bullets/sec will approach 13.5.

    This assumes a rocksolid tickrate. Even on systems like win2k or winxp where ut is best at keeping tickrate there will be a slight deviation from the formula that grows when tr approaches a threshold.

    The script sleeps 80 ms between each bullet but UT uses a slightly incorrect tickdelta for tick/timer functions so the sum of tickdeltas over a second is approx 1085 ms. Thats why the 80 ms translates to 73,5-74 ms.


    - And the TIW minis?

    The Clanbase mini (CB12.u) is set 12.1 bullets/sec. It has no lockdown and the bullets do 1.5 point less damage on average (8-13(x1,5) instead of 9-14 (x1,5)).

    The leagueas minigun maintained lockdown and bulletdamage. The formula we used in the latest attempt was:

    K + exp(L * (lasttickrate-20) ) * J) bullets per sec. If tr was lower than 20 it would cap to K+J

    this would yield K+J bullets at tickrate 20 and approach K bullets as tickrate increased. The slope of this graph is steeper close to K and L determines how fast the graph approaches K.

    Theres another thirdparty TIW mini (TIW.u) that yields approx 13.5 bullets/sec without removing lockdown and changing bullet damage.

    - But if the original mini depends only on tickrate how come minis on two different tickrate 20 servers can be very different?

    The variation in ticks is a major factor in minipower (i.e tickdeltadelta)

    Example 1: A server running at a stable tickrate 20 with 50 ms between each tick would give mini 20 bullets/sec

    Example 2: A server running at tickrate 20 but the 10 first ticks at 55 ms and the 10 last ticks at 45 ms would give mini approx 15 bullets/sec

    Example 3: A server running at tickrate 20 but every second tick is 55 ms and the remaining are 45 ms would give mini approx 10 bullets/sec.

    Example 4: The theoretical worst scenario at tickrate 20 would be the first 19 ticks taking less than 70 ms and the last tick taking the remainder of that second. Then youd get a single bullet/second.

    While Example 4 would result in major warping it is unlikely that you would be able to notice any difference between examples 1-3 in terms of general lagginess unless you can sense pingvariations as low as 10 ms.

    Tickrate 20 is extremely vulnerable to scenarios like this because it lies exactly at the threshold between its most and its least powerful bulletoutput.

    Operating system is the main factor in tick stability but CPU load will cause an increase in tickdeltadelta as well. Even long before a CPU is close to full load and long before youll notice lag effects like players warping it may affect the minigun dramatically.


    - How do I tell if TIW is enabled on a server?

    You can tell if the builtin LeagueAS tiw mini is enabled by using the consolecommand "istiwminienabled". It works without admin access.

    For other miniweapons you can try using the consolecommand "getweapon minigun2". This wont work for 3rd party TIWminis (but will work for the LeagueAS one).


    - Will TIW ever return?

    It is possible that we may give it another try in a future leagueas beta.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2004
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  2. Paa`

    Paa` Don't Fear The Reaper!

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    I dont see the problem with clanbase tiw it's used by thousand's of UT players for all other gametypes, why is'nt it good enough for uta ? never see people complaining about mini in tdm/ctf
     
  3. Rob1000100

    Rob1000100 New Member

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    Thanks for explaining this, I've been wondering what TIW was all about... :)
     
  4. AnTi

    AnTi Ðøgø

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    Exacly what Paa said.
     
  5. Polle

    Polle New Member

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    Cause nolockdown is another issue even more controversial than TIW.

    Also clanbase mini bulletoutput and damage is heavily nerfed compared to std mini at tr 20. Our first attempt at tiw mini was fairly close to the clanbase version and I assure you most ppl werent too happy.

    While my knowledge of CTF/DM is v limited I am fairly certain that it isnt as heavily mini based as assault is. Also
    DM/CTF servers almost always run at 35+ and to my knowledge have for a v long time which would make std mini
    a fair bit weaker so the difference wouldnt be nearly as noticeable.
     
  6. riotz

    riotz My guns are killing me because I did so many

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    Just wanted to point out in 4v4 TDM mini/pulse is one of the most effective guns on some levels (Liandri,Gothic,Codex) actually Deck is the only map that is really mostly shock/sniper based, any where in clsoe fights on any map though can turn into mini/pulse.
     
  7. Shinon`

    Shinon` 19x sshot!

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    thx polle :D
    that vikingsite bout TIW helped me allot :) now i can discuss with others about it ;)
     
  8. m1cr0

    m1cr0 SCHLAAAAND

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    maybe because in 75% of all assault maps there is a minigun used very often?
     
  9. GURKBURKEN

    GURKBURKEN New Member

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    Perhaps the varying use of miniguns is because of somthing like this:

    In DM the sole purpose is to frag as much ppl, in as short time, as possible. (In most DM-maps not possible with a minigun bcos either ppl run away or they take u out with in "instant killer"? More effective to use "instant killers"?)

    In AS you know 98% of the time where the other guy is going/has to go so u can use the mini to safely wear him down.... or something. You know that even if your minigun dont take him out someone elses will or you will respawn and take him out next encounter. Many times there is no point in risking missing 5 snipershots and having the guy hammerjump his way to success.

    I personally think that it gets extremely boring when only one weapon is "best", many times i use not the most efficient weapon but the one i find most fun for the moment (maybe its bcos i get easily bored).

    Tea time.
     
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  10. fu2

    fu2 New Member

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    :o if mini gun power reduced it becomes SNIPER assualt witch = zzzzzzzzzz.. i suggest to those who moan learn to use both guns :P
     
  11. Geo

    Geo One & Only

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    Well i dont play tdm/ctf but i cant imagine the clans that do play tdm/ctf relying heavily on mini ?
     
  12. sobo

    sobo Not always sober

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    :topic::mad:

    looking at the tickrate images of the link in Polles post, I notice quite a lot of gaps in the movement line of a player at TR 20 :\
    so like if someone is launched or is dodging (so they have a high velocity) these gaps would become really really large :\ so safing an objective like the Siegetower from a well placed launchee can become a next to impossible task :\

    Cant todays servers handle a general TR of 30 for that matter? Whats the downside of this apart from higher CPU load?
     
  13. IceDragon

    IceDragon Me uses the hat....

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    maybe you could use something else tthan the mini? :P

    apart from that sobo's idea is nice :)
     
  14. Cratos

    Cratos +++++++++

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    Higher tickrate raises server CPU load and Netload. Since Client connections improved a lot over that last years it up to how much the server can handle. In DM/CTF a tickrate of 30/35 is common. I even played on servers with tickrate 50 running up to 32 players and it was running damn smooth :D

    We know that Assault in general uses more CPU and Traffic, but a TR for 30 should be no problem for today's servers
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2005
  15. Felerian

    Felerian "All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?"

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    yeah :D tickrate 50 = cool :P

    imo tickrate 100 would be awsome ^^

    how long will it take till servers can handle that?
     
  16. Ðeadßoy

    Ðeadßoy Son!c Reducer

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    well we back to TIW

    cause to raise tickrate TIW has to be introduced or the mini / pulse and other weapons it affects would be over powerfull

    imo TIW and a tickrate of 35 would feel so much better in this leauge
     
  17. ZoLa

    ZoLa I Suck

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    well like half of uta like to use minigun mostly, the power is good as it is and i dont want it to change.
     
  18. dark_shadow

    dark_shadow New Member

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    TIW would be interesting in uta...would sure make it more fun for us NA! :rofl: We're already usin it in pugs and it makes gameplay more interesting since it forces us to rely on other weps instead of that zzzz mini(I'm not a very great fan of it btw...CRISS DE MINI FIF A MARDE!!!) So yeah give it a shot and see the improvement! :D
     
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  19. Joko

    Joko Be Young. Be Foolish. But Be Happy!

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    LOL but then all the people that cant aim and just "spray and pray" won't be able to frag :bawling:!
     
  20. yako

    yako ♂Niko®

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    well TIW and no lock down would be worth a try...jus for 1-2 months or so....I know this thread is old but still... :P