ID cards

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How it is here:

.dk have had a central registry number (cpr no.)for all danish citizens since 1968, this is widely used to cross refference persons in various govt. and non-govt. databases, coupled to this is also a id card, that is issued to all persons as they are equipped with a cpr no.

Tho this does provide blackhats and greyhats, with a easily cross refferenced number with which to do mischief, the benefits have proven to be huge and the drawbacks very slim indeed, it's not very harder using a adress or another refference than it is the cpr no.

The card does little to change this, it's simple a easy ID acceptable thruout the country as valid ID.

It does not however provide any tangible proof of ownership, there is no picture, no fingerprint, etc. So where positive indentification si required, you will still need valid photo id, ie. a drivers license, passport, credit card, etc.

Needles to say, a ID card will do little if anything to help crimeprevention. Regardles of it's indentification scheme.
 
It's Tony Blair's legacy to Britain, since he's done FA else.

i have 3 points on my licance and have a prosate problem (just an example)
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Example my arse. Or your arse actually :P

Fact remains you cant judge how successful a scheme will be until its fully implemented
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Well that's interesting - sounds like a great reason for going ahead regardless lol. A sort of patronising 'How do you know you don't like it if you've never tried it?' thing.

I dunno if I like the idea really - I'd feel a bit like a dog with an electronic tag. And I doubt it would stop at ID cards.

As to that tired old "if you're innocent, you have nothing to hide" argument, well, that is just lazy thinking. It seems that the UK government and its employees have a little problem with snooping on its citizens even when they are doing nothing wrong
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I agree with this quite a lot - I don't trust the government to never ever use the info or the system for anything other than the reasons given to the public. If they're going to do it then they better cram it in before the next election or else everyone will just vote Tory to avoid it :P
 
ID`s all have 1 basic flaw regardless of how secure they r.And that is, what do u do when u loose all your papers?`
A central registry with photo and dna wouldnt be a bad idea imo.

Its not tracking anyway.
 
Well that's interesting - sounds like a great reason for going ahead regardless lol. A sort of patronising 'How do you know you don't like it if you've never tried it?' thing
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As Bohr said:
"Prediction is difficult, especially about the future." :rofl:

Wasnt meant to be patronising, its simply the truth :D. And yeh if you dont try you'll never succeed. Facts of Life.
 
dog said:
How it is here:

.dk have had a central registry number (cpr no.)for all danish citizens since 1968, this is widely used to cross refference persons in various govt. and non-govt. databases, coupled to this is also a id card, that is issued to all persons as they are equipped with a cpr no.
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Id card? It that so? Hm, then why dont i have one. Why havent my parents got one? Etc.
The 'sygesikringskort' is not, i repeat not, a id card, in case that is what u are referring to. The closest we come to a id card is either the drivers license or the passport. Both are the only official picture-carrying semi-id cards. Passport does not carry ur home address. Cant remember if the drivers license is supposed to carry ur present address (that is, if it's reissued when u move).
While both of these enable u to crossreference with the cpr, to obtain adress (and a great deal more if u have the right access), they are not idcards. To spell it out, while they are both generally considered valid proofs of id (because of the picture + issuing authority), they are not required to be carried at all times, like a id card is.
Not carrying a idcard would be a crime or legal justification for arrest or detention until ur identity is dug up and confirmed and ur issued with a temporary id card, which u *will* be screwed over if u loose or get rid of it.
 
Here's the draft ID card bill (released on 26-04-2004) for those interested:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/identitycardsconsult.pdf

The draft Bill starts at page 43. The rest is just blunketwaffle where he tries (unconvincingly) to reassure us that he won't be changing his title from Home Secretary to "Reichsführer" quite yet...

Mandatory £1,000 fine for not disclosing damage to card, mandatory £1,000 fine for not advising immediately of change of address, "not compulsory, but we'll fine your ass £2,500 if you don't get one" ... (oh, or in each case we can send you to the clink instead if we want to ... )

It goes on and on like that. If this gets passed, its bye bye to democracy, and hello police state. Might as well have a number tattooed on your ass at birth ...

:(
 
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I believe the trick with Blunkett, is to look at what he really whats from his propositions. He usuallys asks for X, Y, Z AND the moon on a stick. People cryout and complain about him wanting the moon on a stick - yet he still gets X, Y and Z regardless. He always asks for more than he wants, as he knows he will always be opposed by someone and have to give in a little.

The ID card scheme though.. hrmm.. I am against it I think. I have enough cards at the moment from lots of different companies.

The way I see the card working is a few ways:

1) The card holds all the data on a chip/rom which canot be edited (useless)
2) The card holds a hash of my National ID number and is used to access the data remotely, held on goverment servers (useless, dangerious, central point for crackers or terrorism - hrm.. creating a terrorist threat Tony?)
3) The card holds just authentication information such as my iris and fingerprint information, hash of my National ID number and I use it to prove who am I.

How exactly, am I supposed to keep my ID card safe and secure, yet at the same time make it available to A Credit Company so they can activate it for cash. We'd have to give companies read/write access to portions of the ID card?

What about someone creating their own cards like Thur mentioned, we all know BIOS ROM's can be written too by Windows kiddies and a flash upgrade. Encryption can always be cracked, it is not supposed to keep information safe indefinetly, rather to delay anyone accessing the data by as long as possible until such a time that it becomes useless or not worthwhile...

With the advent of P2P networks/worms/trojans - you can imagine the next outbreak to be a trojan which infects a machine and steals its CPU cycles for data decryption rather than an e-mail spamming gateway. With 1 million+ machines at your finger tips, the goverments encryption keys would get turned into jelly in no time.

I think it is probably safe to say this project will fail in glorious fashion - again as mentioned by Thur they can't even roll out IT projects to all the hospitals and doctors out there (at most, 1 million buildings, 5 million staff? And those are crazy over the top numbers imo). To roll out a complex, biometric authentication system to 65million + people, millions of companies, airlines, goverment agcencies, civil servants is a near impossible task. It will fail, and the sooner they get this project going - the sooner Labour will hopefulyl shoot themselves in the foot with it.

Oh, and to top it all off - i'd have 1 plastic card which I would have all my financial, personal and medical details on it, as well as my biometric authentication data. What if I lose it? Will I get another one.. or will I cease to exist and be deported?
 
Best bit is, its intended to replace the passport too at some point. So, what if other countries won't accept it as a valid Passport. That would be just too funny for words. (Well, not really.) More joined up thinking from the current government.

Glad I didn't vote for them in 1997 or 2001. Because I'd be pretty fucking ashamed of having anything to do with a regime which has dismantled our civil liberties so fast since coming to power...

I've heard there are planned marches against the the introduction of ID cards, to be held in Glasgow, and possibly Edinburgh too. I might well consider going on those ...
 
I am so unimpressed with this whole fiasco.

First they say we are thinking about ID cards, they get public opinion which comes back a resounding NO, then they go ahead and start trials anyway, say it will be voluntary, but if you dont get one you will be fined, and we are doing this as a civil penalty rather than a criminal one so that people cant avoid it.

Fucking devious bullshit.

I have no real problem with the concept of ID cards. I think a general ID card would be useful. I think the UK government is incapable of doing this right and it will be done to keep tabs on the citizens of the country and raise more money to keep more civil servants in jobs - you know, the ones they just said were gonna be losing their jobs in the last budget.

Its the underhanded sneakery I am really pissed at. An ID card to stop terrorism, and how does the people at your gym having access to all information about you help that? How does an ID card stop terrorism in the first place! And why give the information to practically anyone that wants it.

"Those who are innocent have nothing to hide" bullshit. Invasion of privacy all over. There is a difference between hiding something and not wanting your personal details available to some snotty so and so in a random office that is passing the time looking up people they know.
 
Mughi
Those who are innocent have nothing to hide" bullshit. Invasion of privacy all over. There is a difference between hiding something and not wanting your personal details available to some snotty so and so in a random office that is passing the time looking up people they know
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Thx Mughi wanted a concise way of saying that.

Martz
I think it is probably safe to say this project will fail in glorious fashion
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Yup - but unfortunately as with anything this governement implements that fails they invest even more money into spin in order to convince the general public through the manipulation of statistics that it has worked.

Thur
he tries (unconvincingly) to reassure us that he won't be changing his title from Home Secretary to "Reichsführer" quite yet...(and) It goes on and on like that. If this gets passed, its bye bye to democracy, and hello police state.
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Whilst there is an amount of jest within this comment, this appears so close to the truth it stopped being funny a couple of seconds after reading it:/

IMO this is just another example of the government deciding that people in the UK have far to much free will, have been allowed their own ideas too long and no longer have a clue how when they a problem that requires intervention of how to remove the bad apples. They decide that shaking the fucking tree and bringing the whole lot down is the best option.

This will be another act by the Labour government designed to control and manipulate, rather than to include and promote responsivity-(which should be the the theoretical base for a supposed left-wing government ffs) amongst people - It uses spin to infect fear in the masses and then shoe-horns in policy that is easier to manage because of it's punitive nature and largely quantative indicators of success, thus making it significantly easier to "cook the books" and tell us how right they were for allowing them to strip us of our liberty in the first place.

Thur
Because I'd be pretty fucking ashamed of having anything to do with a regime which has dismantled our civil liberties so fast since coming to power...
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I am choking on the gristly, rancid and bitter tasting humble pie ffs.
 
Twonko said:
Good enough for me. I'm 100% for them. Bring it on.
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If I was still modding this forum, I'd just delete that post as contributing nothing to the discussion and being an incitement to argument. But then no doubt you'd whine about abuses of power. So, now that I can, I'll sink to your level, use language you can understand, and call you a twat faced nob-gobbler! :D

You have the number tattooed on your arse and carry your ID card. The rest of us will give it a miss thanks...

:)
 
Andy said:
nope im for em as well as are the majority of people according to the polls
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Must say, I'd love to see how the question was put to the people who were polled. Somehow, I don't think it went like this (i.e. the truth):


MORI Pollster: Hi there! Are you happy to pay anything up to £80 for another piece of plastic in your wallet, which will be of fuck all benefit to you, but allow the government to keep better tabs on you?

Joe Punter: Fuck aye!

You can get polls to return any result you are looking for by cooking the question and targeting the people you poll. Now, if there was a referendum of UK voters which had returned a majority vote in favour of ID cards, that would be different. Especially with the electoral commission ensuring that the question can't be misleading etc.

No offence Andy, but what concrete, tangible reasons do you have for being in favour of compulsory ID cards?
 
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That is the point I don't need concrete reasons, all I need is an opinion, wether that opinion is right or wrong in long run is yet to be seen. And I am not of the camp thinking this will reduce terrorism in any way or form.
 
It could be argued that that is just an attempt to derail the thread into a discussion of how to debate. Since u are for them, u are rougly speaking on the propopent team, i.e. those trying to sell them.
And basically it is a 'sell' situation. In any case u must be able to explain or give examples of why, else ur contribution to the matter has no value other than swaying those feeble minded that dont mind not understanding the motives and ramifications and will blissfully continue their ignorance, caring only that they opine like such people as they happen like at the moment. Maybe its "i work for bt and we'd just love to be able to know a unique lifetime id of all our customers, because that would make net and phone usage tracking data much more valuable with less effort. (selling such data to goverment bodies and underhandedly to business and 'special interest' parties)".
Fess up or shu.....
Considering just how much potential for "unintended" abuse this has, i currently see no reason whatsoever to trust anyone who is for it who also fails to argue the benefits to AND lack of drawbacks for joe average and safeguards that will be needed. Not just to ensure it is and will remain safe, but also that it is sound, i.e. is not just another huge goverment project to keep ppl busy and also is in fact not just another grap for more power.
In that lack of any such arguments, what choice can anyone make other than assume the motives for being for it is certainly not to do unto them any good deeds.
 
I honestley see no point in the whole id card thing. I am quite happy to carry my current pieces of paper thank you. However, it is the biometrics issue that realy iritates me. On a recent BBC news broadcast I recall even the ceo of one of the biometrics companies admitting that any biometric system could be fooled. Is this what our taxes should be paying for? We have failing public services (like the nhs) and all Blunket can do is spend a vast sum of money on biometric equipment which will end up obseleted within 10 years (Trust me, my brother has worked as an IT consultant for the government, he knows how these things end.) And how long is it before your finger prints are kept on a national database that any government agencey can get at when they feel like it. It's privacy infringment of the highest order. If the government give me a biometric id card I will burn mine and I have plenty of friends that will join me. I don't mind id cards themselves if they are free but biometrics is a gross waste of money and just another way to ensure nobody has any privacy. Anyone here read 1984?
 
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